The Protestants Ordaining Preachers


#1

WHen a Protestant Preacher is ordained, is it considered invalid? Since they are in Schism and separated from the True Church…is not all they say and do invalid? Therefore, it would leave one to believe that all the people they ordain are invalid…this is just the tip of the iceberg with issues I have with Protestants…and considering I am a convert and my whole family is protestant…I am not unjustly accusing…but I Iam relatively new to the Catholic faith, and I need some insight, please help.


#2

Well here is the funny part about protestant ordination just like many of the supposed sacraments they have its only symbolic nothing really happens they are going through the motions.

Catholics beleive in 7 sacraments ordination being one of them the priest shares in the high priesthood of Jesus Christ and by means of apostolic succession via their bishop laying on of hands. So something special is going on during the catholic holy orders.

A protestant does not beliee in holy orders or apostolic succession
(except for anglicans) its not like ordination continues in the tradition of the apostles nor can trace their lineage to the apostles so by their very own admisssion their ordination is not really that special and I would have to agree its a man made tradition that is seperate from apostolic tradition.


#3

Thanks…that is what I thought as well…anyone else?

[quote=Maccabees]Well here is the funny part about protestant ordination just like many of the supposed sacraments they have its only symbolic nothing really happens they are going through the motions.

Catholics beleive in 7 sacraments ordination being one of them the priest shares in the high priesthood of Jesus Christ and by means of apostolic succession via their bishop laying on of hands. So something special is going on during the catholic holy orders.

A protestant does not beliee in holy orders or apostolic succession
(except for anglicans) its not like ordination continues in the tradition of the apostles nor can trace their lineage to the apostles so by their very own admisssion their ordination is not really that special and I would have to agree its a man made tradition that is seperate from apostolic tradition.
[/quote]


#4

Right. It’s not ordination in the way Catholics understand it at all. It is not a sacrament, and I doubt whether many denominations view it as anything more than a certification or licence to preach. In some denominations the candidate is called up and ratified by the congregation. In some denominations seminary training is required, in others the candidate just steps forward and starts preaching – with or without formal training. If he has a gift, he may then be “ordained.” There is a lot of variance.

The word “validity” doesn’t even apply. It has NOTHING to do with participation in the Apostolic gifts for priesthood.


#5

[quote=dumspirospero]Thanks…that is what I thought as well…anyone else?
[/quote]

An informative book on areas as these is “Handbook of Christian Apologetics” by Peter Kreeft. He provides many answers to basic questions through an excellent argumentative style.


#6

[quote=dumspirospero]Thanks…that is what I thought as well…anyone else?
[/quote]

An informative book on areas as these is “Handbook of Christian Apologetics” by Peter Kreeft. He provides many answers to basic questions through an excellent argumentative style.


#7

[quote=dumspirospero]WHen a Protestant Preacher is ordained, is it considered invalid? Since they are in Schism and separated from the True Church…is not all they say and do invalid? Therefore, it would leave one to believe that all the people they ordain are invalid…this is just the tip of the iceberg with issues I have with Protestants…and considering I am a convert and my whole family is protestant…I am not unjustly accusing…but I Iam relatively new to the Catholic faith, and I need some insight, please help.
[/quote]

I think the answer to your question depends on what you mean by “invalid.” If you mean valid in the eyes of the Catholic Church, then I agree with mercygate that the issue of validity is null here because Protestants don’t believe holy orders are sacramental. One of the requirements for a valid sacrament is right intent and Protestants don’t intend to confer valid holy orders according to the criteria set out by the Catholic Church. However, you seem to use “invalid” beyond just the validity of holy orders by saying “is not all they say and do invalid?” The answer to this question is no. They can validly baptize, marry, and say and do many other “valid” things. Beware of throwing the baby out with the bath water here. There are many good and true things to be found in Protestantism. Of course, all of these and more can be found in the Catholic Church.

  • JP

#8

An excellent point, JP. Here’s my $.02.
I think God in His mercy and love holds valid that which Protestant clergy do because the followers have faith, and God honours that faith, though incomplete. That might explain why they too have healings in their tradition or expression of faith. Protestants too feed the hungry, comfort the afflicted, cloth the naked etc. etc.
The catechism says it best:

818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers … All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

http://www.kofc.org/images/1px_transparent.gifUnitatis redintegratio 3
kofc.org/publications/cis/catechism/getreftext.cfm?PartNum=1&SecNum=2&ChapNum=3&FParnum=1065&FnoteNum=272&NoteText=272%20UR%203%20%26%23167%3B%201%2E


#9

Thanks for pointing that out…I did word that improperly…sorry.

[quote=j_arden]I think the answer to your question depends on what you mean by “invalid.” If you mean valid in the eyes of the Catholic Church, then I agree with mercygate that the issue of validity is null here because Protestants don’t believe holy orders are sacramental. One of the requirements for a valid sacrament is right intent and Protestants don’t intend to confer valid holy orders according to the criteria set out by the Catholic Church. However, you seem to use “invalid” beyond just the validity of holy orders by saying “is not all they say and do invalid?” The answer to this question is no. They can validly baptize, marry, and say and do many other “valid” things. Beware of throwing the baby out with the bath water here. There are many good and true things to be found in Protestantism. Of course, all of these and more can be found in the Catholic Church.

  • JP
    [/quote]

#10

WHen a Protestant Preacher is ordained, is it considered invalid? Since they are in Schism and separated from the True Church…is not all they say and do invalid?

I think they are not in schism from the very beginning but were in heresy. Schism would have meant that they also believe what we believe just like the Orthodox Churches but are separated because of disobedience to Papal authority. But since they disregard the very core doctrines such as the Eucharist, etc., Luther propagated heresy.

Pio


#11

[quote=kepha1]An excellent point, JP. Here’s my $.02.
I think God in His mercy and love holds valid that which Protestant clergy do because the followers have faith, and God honours that faith, though incomplete. That might explain why they too have healings in their tradition or expression of faith. Protestants too feed the hungry, comfort the afflicted, cloth the naked etc. etc.
The catechism says it best:

818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers … All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

http://www.kofc.org/images/1px_transparent.gif***Unitatis redintegratio*** 3
kofc.org/publications/cis/catechism/getreftext.cfm?PartNum=1&SecNum=2&ChapNum=3&FParnum=1065&FnoteNum=272&NoteText=272%20UR%203%20%26%23167%3B%201%2E
[/quote]

I was looking for an existing thread to pose a hypothetical question, and this thread comes closest. Suppose a man were to to serve in an isolated parish for 30 years as its priest, and it came to light that he was not validly ordained, either by oversight of some fundamental requisite or because he was a fraud. Would that mean that nobody ever received Jesus’ body and blood, or absolution, etc.?

I know that unworthy ministers, validly conferring the sacraments, cannot impede the efficacy of signs ordained by Christ to produce grace ex opere operato. But in this particular hypothetical parish, the sacraments of Eucharist and Reconciliation (as well as any Anointings of the Sick and any Confirmations that might have been performed at an Easter Vigil Mass without a bishop present) would have lacked valid matter (i.e. a validly ordained priest). I’m assuming of course that baptisms (because anyone can baptize) and weddings (because the recipients confer this sacrament on each other) would still be “ok,” and the chances of an ordination having occurred at this hypothetical parish would be null.


#12

[quote=Erich]I was looking for an existing thread to pose a hypothetical question, and this thread comes closest. Suppose a man were to to serve in an isolated parish for 30 years as its priest, and it came to light that he was not validly ordained, either by oversight of some fundamental requisite or because he was a fraud. Would that mean that nobody ever received Jesus’ body and blood, or absolution, etc.?

I know that unworthy ministers, validly conferring the sacraments, cannot impede the efficacy of signs ordained by Christ to produce grace ex opere operato. But in this particular hypothetical parish, the sacraments of Eucharist and Reconciliation (as well as any Anointings of the Sick and any Confirmations that might have been performed at an Easter Vigil Mass without a bishop present) would have lacked valid matter (i.e. a validly ordained priest). I’m assuming of course that baptisms (because anyone can baptize) and weddings (because the recipients confer this sacrament on each other) would still be “ok,” and the chances of an ordination having occurred at this hypothetical parish would be null.
[/quote]

There is a world of difference between “unworthy” and “invalid or feigned ordination”. Exactly where this leaves those who were decieved I am not sure of. I would think that they are in the soup. The eucharist would not have been confected, confirmation and confessions ineffective. Hopefully God would have mercy on those who died without knowing.


#13

[quote=rwoehmke]There is a world of difference between “unworthy” and “invalid or feigned ordination”. Exactly where this leaves those who were decieved I am not sure of. I would think that they are in the soup. The eucharist would not have been confected, confirmation and confessions ineffective. Hopefully God would have mercy on those who died without knowing.
[/quote]

Hmm, perhaps I wasn’t clear… I know that there would not have been any valid Eucharist, Reconciliation, Anointing, and Confirmation (no priest, no sacrament). And I, too, would like to think that God would have mercy on those who died without knowing – especially if the ordination were feigned!

That said, for all practical purposes, I really don’t see anyone successfully feigning ordination and getting himself appointed pastor of a parish by any bishop… and certainly not for a 30 year term! But I can (hypothetically) see questions of validity raised in cases where, say, the Church has been suppressed for many, many years and/or there aren’t enough bishops to go around and/or the seminaries can’t exactly advertise that they’re “open for business”. As to what might constitute “oversight of some fundamental requisite” the only thing I can think of might be some defect in the particular ordination itself (e.g. for whatever reason the ordination ceremony was interrupted, and everyone thought that they were “picking up where they left off” but actually they skipped an essential sentence/paragraph/whatever).


#14

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