The Qur'an: Created Or Uncreated


#1

Peace be with you!

Muslims and many people called Christians do the mistake of comparing the Qur’an to the Bible, while in fact the Qur’an must be compared to Jesus, the ETERNAL Word of God.

Muslims believe that the Qur’an descended from Heaven and is not just inspired like the Bible. So the Qur’an claims being “mounazzal” ( Arabic: descended ), while the Bible does not claim this. The Bible says that JESUS is the ONLY Word of God that came down from Heaven. Jesus said:

“No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.” ( John 3:13 )

Now the question I would like to ask to every Muslim visiting this forum:

Is the Qur’an created or uncreated?

In Christ,
THEOPHILUS†


#2

[quote=THEOPHILUS†]Peace be with you!

Muslims and many people called Christians do the mistake of comparing the Qur’an to the Bible, while in fact the Qur’an must be compared to Jesus, the ETERNAL Word of God.

Muslims believe that the Qur’an descended from Heaven and is not just inspired like the Bible. So the Qur’an claims being “mounazzal” ( Arabic: descended ), while the Bible does not claim this. The Bible says that JESUS is the ONLY Word of God that came down from Heaven. Jesus said:

“No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.” ( John 3:13 )

Now the question I would like to ask to every Muslim visiting this forum:

Is the Qur’an created or uncreated?

In Christ,
THEOPHILUS†
[/quote]

Traditionally the Quran is the speech of Allah (swt)

It is not created.


#3

[quote=hawk]Traditionally the Quran is the speech of Allah (swt)

It is not created.
[/quote]

If I am not mistaken, it is recited. :wink:


#4

[quote=hawk]Traditionally the Quran is the speech of Allah (swt)

It is not created.
[/quote]

When you say “traditionally” you must be clear and say “Sunna tradition or Hadith”, because the Shiia tradition says that the Qur’an is created…

Anyway, as you say that the Qur’an is not created, then I have a question for you:

Didn’t God create EVERYTHING? Is not God the ONLY uncreated Being? Then how is the Qur’an uncreated?

In the Logos,
THEOPHILUS†


#5

[quote=THEOPHILUS†]When you say “traditionally” you must be clear and say “Sunna tradition or Hadith”, because the Shiia tradition says that the Qur’an is created…

Anyway, as you say that the Qur’an is not created, then I have a question for you:

Didn’t God create EVERYTHING? Is not God the ONLY uncreated Being? Then how is the Qur’an uncreated?

In the Logos,
THEOPHILUS†
[/quote]

That’s an interesting point. I was wondering where you were going with the Jesus Quran comparison. The Word is with God and the Word is God in Christianity, but how does the word of Allah fit with Allah? At least a duality (instead of trinity) seems to be present.


#6

[quote=Genesis315]That’s an interesting point. I was wondering where you were going with the Jesus Quran comparison. The Word is with God and the Word is God in Christianity, but how does the word of Allah fit with Allah? At least a duality (instead of trinity) seems to be present.
[/quote]

:slight_smile:

Maybe some people are worshiping a book without knowing…

Maybe Muhammad just replaced Jesus by the Qur’an…

THEOPHILUS†


#7

[quote=THEOPHILUS†]When you say “traditionally” you must be clear and say “Sunna tradition or Hadith”, because the Shiia tradition says that the Qur’an is created…

Anyway, as you say that the Qur’an is not created, then I have a question for you:

Didn’t God create EVERYTHING? Is not God the ONLY uncreated Being? Then how is the Qur’an uncreated?

In the Logos,
THEOPHILUS†
[/quote]

The speech of Allah is not a creation.
I am not familiar with Shia traditions.

The Quran is simply the communication of Allah to humanity.

I am a former muslim, I think that questions of this nature, are not really interesting except from an academic perspective.


#8

[quote=THEOPHILUS†]:slight_smile:

Maybe some people are worshiping a book without knowing…

Maybe Muhammad just replaced Jesus by the Qur’an…

THEOPHILUS†
[/quote]

This is true, Mohammed did try to replace the living word, with his book.


#9

[quote=hawk]This is true, Mohammed did try to replace the living word, with his book.
[/quote]

I don’t know of any evidence that Mohammed knew of Jesus as Logos. Mohammed thought Christians believed the same things as Jews.


#10

[quote=THEOPHILUS†]Peace be with you!

Muslims and many people called Christians do the mistake of comparing the Qur’an to the Bible, while in fact the Qur’an must be compared to Jesus, the ETERNAL Word of God.

Muslims believe that the Qur’an descended from Heaven and is not just inspired like the Bible. So the Qur’an claims being “mounazzal” ( Arabic: descended ), while the Bible does not claim this. The Bible says that JESUS is the ONLY Word of God that came down from Heaven. Jesus said:

“No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.” ( John 3:13 )

Now the question I would like to ask to every Muslim visiting this forum:

Is the Qur’an created or uncreated?

In Christ,
THEOPHILUS†
[/quote]

This was answered in another thread on the forum recently. You can search for it and read it. :slight_smile:


#11

[quote=gilliam]I don’t know of any evidence that Mohammed knew of Jesus as Logos. Mohammed thought Christians believed the same things as Jews.
[/quote]

No, he knew that they had differences in their beliefs.

He knew that Christians thought of Jesus as the “Son of God”.
He knew that they ascribed divinity to the Christ.

He knew the jews did not do this, yet they did think of him as a teacher of some sort.

Mohammed heard all these stories as a trader to syria.

It was here that he developed his theology, it was judaism for non-jews.

But he also tried to rope in the Christians, because they would be powerful allies.

Hence he reconciles all his beliefs, into his new monotheism, Islam.

Ofcourse, in the process, the Bible (he uses its authority for his benefit) contradicts his teachings, hence he must also supercede its authority , and hence accuses jews of not following their scriptures, and christians of heresy of ascribing divinity to Jesus.


#12

[quote=hawk]The speech of Allah is not a creation.
I am not familiar with Shia traditions.

The Quran is simply the communication of Allah to humanity.

I am a former muslim, I think that questions of this nature, are not really interesting except from an academic perspective.
[/quote]

Friend, this is not an academic thing. This is very essential for you to know. If you say Christians are doing “shirk”, i.e. worshiping a creature besides God, then you must understand that we don’t do that. Jesus is not someone separated from God. He is the Word of God.

Muhammad replaced Jesus with the Qur’an.

Look, when you say that the speech of Allah is not created, you are saying the same thing as we say about Jesus. Can we say that you are worshiping a book ( the Qur’an )??? When you say that the Qur’an is not created, then this means the Qur’an is one with God!!!

THEOPHILUS†


#13

Jesus is not someone separated from God. He is the Word of God.

What about when Jesus peace be upon him used to relieve himself, was that also part of God?


#14

[quote=THEOPHILUS†]When you say “traditionally” you must be clear and say “Sunna tradition or Hadith”, because the Shiia tradition says that the Qur’an is created…

Anyway, as you say that the Qur’an is not created, then I have a question for you:

Didn’t God create EVERYTHING? Is not God the ONLY uncreated Being? Then how is the Qur’an uncreated?

In the Logos,
THEOPHILUS†
[/quote]

If it is the speech of God, then it might be a Divine hypostasis, like Wisdom in Proverbs, or Righteousness & Peace in the Psalms


#15

By the way: what do you mean by “Muslims”? Shiia or Sunna???

Jesus is not someone separated from God. He is the Word of God.

What about when Jesus peace be upon him used to relieve himself, was that also part of God?

You see why I opened this topic? Because you don’t know what it means to be incarnated.

Tell me: did the Qur’an remain uncreated and eternal when humans wrote it on a paper? Is what you read each day ONE with God?

THEOPHILUS†


#16

this is getting intresting.

If the Quran is the word of God, and is recited (his spoken word), then the word must come forth by breath, that is it must be spoken to be heard. Was the word spoken from the beginning?

In hebrew the word for breath is ruach (?sp), *. This is the very same word that means spirit, heace the word is born forth by the spirit. If the word has not been spoken then the word is not known and if there is no breath then the word cannot be spoken.

If the word is not spoken from the beginning then it is a created thing, if it uncreated it must have always existed.

God spoke the Eternal Word which his breath bore forth into the world. All three are eternal (and eternity is a proper aspect of God).

Since all three are eternal, God, His Word, and the Breath by which the Word is spoken then we should say that the Word is part of God (that is it is His Thought made manifest) as well as the Breath (this is the active aspect of speaking). They cannot be seperated yet each is understood seperate from the other.

This is why we speak of the Father (God), the Son (Word), and the Spirit (Breath)*


#17

[quote=But for Grace]this is getting intresting.

If the Quran is the word of God, and is recited (his spoken word), then the word must come forth by breath, that is it must be spoken to be heard. Was the word spoken from the beginning?

In hebrew the word for breath is ruach (?sp), *. This is the very same word that means spirit, heace the word is born forth by the spirit. If the word has not been spoken then the word is not known and if there is no breath then the word cannot be spoken.

If the word is not spoken from the beginning then it is a created thing, if it uncreated it must have always existed.

God spoke the Eternal Word which his breath bore forth into the world. All three are eternal (and eternity is a proper aspect of God).

Since all three are eternal, God, His Word, and the Breath by which the Word is spoken then we should say that the Word is part of God (that is it is His Thought made manifest) as well as the Breath (this is the active aspect of speaking). They cannot be seperated yet each is understood seperate from the other.

This is why we speak of the Father (God), the Son (Word), and the Spirit (Breath)*

Just one important comment: the Word is not PART of God, but the Word is God, ONE with God. God is not three parts.

THEOPHILUS†
[/quote]


#18

THEOPHILUS† - thank you, I was trying to show the inclusiveness of the Son and the Father, but perhaps lacked clarity.


#19

[quote=But for Grace]THEOPHILUS† - thank you, I was trying to show the inclusiveness of the Son and the Father, but perhaps lacked clarity.
[/quote]

Yes :slight_smile: But I did the comment just for Muslims who will read you and who may misunderstand you.

Thank you.

THEOPHILUS†


#20

[quote=But for Grace]this is getting intresting.

If the Quran is the word of God, and is recited (his spoken word), then the word must come forth by breath, that is it must be spoken to be heard. Was the word spoken from the beginning?

In hebrew the word for breath is ruach (?sp), *. This is the very same word that means spirit, heace the word is born forth by the spirit. If the word has not been spoken then the word is not known and if there is no breath then the word cannot be spoken.

If the word is not spoken from the beginning then it is a created thing, if it uncreated it must have always existed.

God spoke the Eternal Word which his breath bore forth into the world. All three are eternal (and eternity is a proper aspect of God).

Since all three are eternal, God, His Word, and the Breath by which the Word is spoken then we should say that the Word is part of God (that is it is His Thought made manifest) as well as the Breath (this is the active aspect of speaking). They cannot be seperated yet each is understood seperate from the other.

This is why we speak of the Father (God), the Son (Word), and the Spirit (Breath)*

At least in regards to the Bible, the Bible is “God’s Word” only by analogy - the same is presumably true of the Koran

The Koran is not God - it is “other than” God. Since the concept of creation from eternity is not self-contradictory, there can, in principle, be entities which are eternal and are created. So an eternal Koran which does not violate shirk is not a contradiction in terms - for it is not being “associated” with God if it is said to be eternal. It could perfectly well be an eternal Idea in the mind of God, and so, be eternal in the same way the decree of election & predestination is eternal

It would be interesting to know where Muslim theologians, beginning with Muhammad & his companions, got their ideas from. I’m guessing there is some Neo-Platonist influence - not least because some of what is “typically” Muslim is inherited from the Syrian Christianity of Muhammad’s day.

Christians are the real Muslims, for we are the one who are “submissive” (at least in theory) to Jesus Christ :slight_smile: ##
[/quote]


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