The Rapture


#1

We won’t go through the Tribulation because God doesn’t subject the saved to Wrath. “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.” 1 Thessalonians 5:9

Jesus talking to the Church of Philadelphia
"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, which shall come upon all the world, to test those who dwell upon the earth." Rev. 3:8-10

Jesus said this after the apostles asked, when will the end come.
“Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to ESCAPE all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.” LUKE 21:36
This came out of the mouth of JESUS.

And I’m sure you are aware of 1 Thes. 4:16-18

Look back to Noah and Lot’s day. Both Noah and Lot lived in very wicked times. God needed to judge this evil. In Noah’s day the whole earth had become evil, and in Soddom and Gahmorra God could’nt even find ONE good person. In both of these accounts God chose to REMOVE the righteous prior to the judjment of the unbelievers.

Here is what awaits the people who don’t get “caught up” with the Lord in the air.

-The economy will crash…Rev 6:6
-every mountian and Island will be moved…Rev 6:14
-Before the Great Tribulation(3.5 years after the Trib.) Silence will fall in heaven for 30 min. because all will be shocked by the Wrath of God…Rev 8:1
-A third of the trees, and green grass will be burned up…Rev 8:7
-Hail and fire mingled with blood will fall to the earth…Rev 8:7
-A comet or astroid the size of a Mountain will hit a ocean…Rev 8:9
-Water will not be drinkable…Rev8:10-11
-Demons will be released from hell not to kill, but to sting them like a scorpion for 5 months, and their sting will be felt for 5 months…rev 9:3-5
-Men will want to die but God won’t let them…Rev 9:6
-100 lb hailstones will fall from the sky…Rev 16:21
-The sea will turn to blood…Rev 8:7-8, 16:21
-If you want to live you will have to take the Mark of the Beast…Rev 13:17
-The Antichrist will rule…Rev 13:12
-A third of the population will die (That’s about 2 billion people!)…Rev 9:18

the list actually goes on and on…

There will be 2 witnesses that will preach the word of God during all of this. They will preach for 3.5 years, and then be killed by the anti-christ. They will lie dead for 3.5 days, then God will give them life. Next they will be Raptued up to heaven in front of the whole world, at that time everyone will know exactly what happened to all of the other people that dissapeared. Please read this for your self in the Bible (Rev. 11:3-13)

When will this happen?

“And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.” Matthew 24:14

We are close.

What is your take on all of this?

Here’s the new thread, references in the John Hagee thread.

Questions:

  1. Do you think the CC is the Whore of Babylon?
  2. Do you follow pre-, post-, mid- tribulation?

Here’s a comparison between Catholic and Dispensationalist:
carl-olson.com/graphics/Cath_Disp_Comp_03.pdft End Times view:


#2

Questions:

  1. Do you think the CC is the Whore of Babylon?
  2. Do you follow pre-, post-, mid- tribulation?
  1. Nope
  2. I believe it’s not for us to know as it would make it too easy to pinpoint the time of Christ’s return.

#3

**“I am going to be Raptured out before the Great Tribulation!”
**
The most influential American millenarian movement of the last century is premillennial Dispensationalism. Its core tenet is the pretribulation Rapture event. The ongoing impact of Dispensationalism can hardly be overstated, as evidenced by the wildly popular Left Behind books.

One “escape passage” used by pretribulation Rapture advocates is Revelation 3:10 where Jesus instructs John to write these words to the church at Philadelphia: “Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial which is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell upon the earth.” Being kept from the “hour of trial” is interpreted as a reference to the Rapture, when Christians will be translated from earth to be with Christ in heaven.

Yet Revelation 3 never mentions the Rapture or being “taken up” or “translated” to heaven. Rather, Christ’s assurance to the Church is like his request of the Father, “I do not ask thee to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one” (John 17:15), and his statement “In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world” (John 16:33).

Christians have been chosen “out of the world” (John 15:19), but it does not follow that they will be taken out of the world prior to a time of tribulation. The face value interpretation of the text is that Jesus would protect the church of Philadelphia in a special way from the persecutions and turmoil that were about to come on the Church in the first century.

Another Dispensationalist argument for the Rapture is that since the word church does not appear between Revelation 6 and 18, the Church must not go through the tribulations described in those chapters. But this “argument from absence” as it were, applied to other words, leads to odd and untenable conclusions.

For instance, the word *Jesus *does not occur between Revelation 1:9 and 12:17. Does this mean that Jesus is not the subject of Revelation, since his name does not appear for nearly twelve chapters or over half of the book? Because the name Jesus is not used, are references to “the Lion of Judah,” “the root of David,” and “the Lamb” references to someone other than Jesus? Hardly.

A closely related problem is that the words* church* and churches do not appear even after Dispensationalists want the Church back on the scene in chapter 19. These words do not appear after Revelation 3 until the very end of the book (Rev. 22:16). A consistent Dispensationalist who uses this interpretive method would have to conclude that the Church not only does not appear in Revelation 6-18, it disappears altogether.

The Dispensationalist position is hurt also by an argument from the other side of the coin. How do they understand the many references to “the saints” in Revelation 6-18 (8:3-4; 11:18; 13:7, 10; 14:12; 16:6; 17:6; 18:20, 24), not to mention the “great multitude” (7:9), and the “souls of those who had been slain” (6:9)?

It is far more sensible to recognize that “the saints” is a clear reference to the Church and that there is no pretribulational Rapture in the book of Revelation.

catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0209fea5.asp


#4

I think thats a rather silly question to pose. From reading your post it sounds to me that you subscribe to the Hagee/La Haye fundamentalist interpretation which is out of step with Catholic teaching on Revelation. I am glad to have left the theology of wild speculation/imagination for one that is a little more down to earth. One of the reasons the Catholic church doesn’t go too far in nailing down the “day of the Lord”/rapture is even Jesus doesn’t know when it will come. How many preachers/fundie groups have claimed to know “the truth” only to be proven wrong?

In the style it was written, Revelation was meant to be only a glimpse of what the end would look like. I.E. God wins. The rest is a matter of personal speculation and shouldn’t be something we as Christians should spend our days worrying about. There are still people who haven’t heard the good news, those who are hungry, homeless and destitute!

Most fundamentalists ARE more concerned with the esoteric, and secret truths than the plain truth of the Gospels or living according to those truths. That’s why people like John Hagee can live in a place called “The Dominion” with the likes of elite rich business moguls, pro-athletes and celebrities. What we should concern ourselves with (as Jesus said in Matthew) is making sure we are ready to go, and in the mean while, spread the good news.

Living in San Antonio, I can attest to most Hagee followers to be nuts of the worst sort…serious kool-aid drinkers. No offense to present company intended. I would be interested to hear how someone could go from the Catholic church (any normal church really) to one like his. I’d love to hear why you follow a man who has such a disdain for piety and charity that he lives in luxury while men and women in this city are living on the streets with nothing but the clothes on their backs. I came to the Catholic church for many reasons. At the top of the list was the complete hypocrisy of non-denominational clergy fleecing the wool off the backs of their sheep while making no sacrifices themselves. Whatever happened to pastors knowing a trade as Peter and Paul did? Honestly, its people like John Hagee and left field fundies that makes me very, VERY glad to have found my way home!


#5

#6

The rapture is simply a false doctrine. Christ will return and that’s it. I am amused that the same folks who accuse Catholicism of creating doctrines out of whole cloth are in fact doing exactly that with the rapture theory.


#7

The “restrainer” /the Church of Chist must be removed before the 7 years of tribulation can start and the Anti-christ can come on seen. Therefore, there can only be a PreTribulation “catching away.”

I know Catholics don’t believe this, so let’s have it.:slight_smile:

There’s a thread here, which includes CC rebuttals to the charge that she is the Whore of Babylon: forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=122833

I am not sure if you know this, but do you know where your pastor gets his sources about Catholicism? Has he or you ever looked at CC sources themselves? How do the Marian appraritions play a major role?

Catholics do not exalt Mary above or equal to Jesus. Jesus Christ whom is the Son of the Eternal God cannot, cannot compare to Mary, whom is a finite creature. However, Jesus came to the world through Mary, so she has a special in our hearts. Why do you believe that Catholics “exalt” Mary?

In your previous post, you mention that there will be 2 witnesses to preach the Word post rapture yet according to you the restrainer, what you call the Church of Christ will taken away…how can these two witness preach if the Church of Christ is not there? are there two raptures? Doesn’t this suggest that believers can exist upon the earth during the tribulation, so the first rapture is not needed?
[/quote]


#8
  1. I’m afraid the scriptures very clearly point to it. I believe we are in the end times. I also believe that Marian apparitions will play a major role in the deceptions of many,many people. Many of these apparitions have exhaulted themselves to be equal with Christ. The biblical mary would never do this. If anyone wants to know how wide the deception is I recommend these materials:
    quoted from JCPeacekeeper

I am intrigued, what Marian apparition exalts itself as the equal of Christ. It seems to me this would put it on the fast track to being declared a false apparition.

Did you know that the Catholic Church does look into apparitions and does declare whether or not it is ok for Catholics to believe in them (but Catholics are never forced to believe in private revelation, so no Catholic has to believe in them)
One of the ways the Church uses to decide if they are real apparitions or false is if their teaching agrees with the gospel message.

It would certainly seem that putting Mary on a par with Jesus would be disagreeing with the gospel message.

Because of this, I am eager to hear of any accepted apparition that claims this.

A lone Raven


#9

:thumbsup:


#10

#11

#12

I have never met a Catholic who worshipped Mary, but I have met plenty of fundamentalists who worship the Bible. Please show me exactly in the Catechism where Catholics are commanded to worship Mary. Be specific.

Btw, I am a former Protestant minster and now am a Catholic priest. I felt exactly as you do about Catholicism. Not any more of course.


#13

I’m afraid they don’t. :slight_smile:

I believe we are in the end times.

You are entitled to be wrong – as hundreds of self-interpreting Bible readers have before you, and will be after you.

I also believe that Marian apparitions will play a major role in the deceptions of many,many people. Many of these apparitions have exhaulted themselves to be equal with Christ.

Examples, please.

The “restrainer” /the Church of Chist must be removed before the 7 years of tribulation can start and the Anti-christ can come on seen. Therefore, there can only be a PreTribulation “catching away.”

By who’s interpretation of the Bible, and why should I listen to it? What authority does this “interpreter” have?


#14

The website that your husband refered to has little on it except that some accept the Marian Apparitions are to turn us to God, and some call them Satanic.

I am asking you or your husband to substantiate a claim that was made. I would ask do you know the difference between an accepted apparition, or even that there is a difference between accepted apparitions and un-accepted apparitions. It would seem you would not make the distinction.

Again, you made the claim that Mary claims to be on a par with Christ, and an un-accepted apparition may have said this, but the Church would reject any apparition that claims this.

Will you please respond?

A lone Raven

p.s. Prayer does not necessarily mean worship. Pray tell, why do you believe it does?

p.p.s. Also, why do you assume that because we are Catholics we do not read the word of God?


#15

From JCPeacekeepers wife: Are you going to give support for you believing it is a false doctrine? We have been backing ours up with scripture. I know my husband posted scriptures. There is a difference in the “rapture” and His second coming. He will be in the clouds at the catching away. He will only set foot on the earth in His second coming on the top of the Mt.Olives. That is when He sets up His earthly kingdom. God will pour out His wrath on the earth during the Great Tribulation. God has never put His people through His wrath. They have always been spared. Please look at the scriptures posted earlier supporting the catching away theory.:smiley:


#16

I have to ask why you believe that God has always spared His people from His wrath. There were even times when God’s people were the object of His wrath.

Look at Job. Look at what happened to Israel and Judah during the babylonian exile.

God allows and has always allowed His Church to be tested, and has allowed misfortunes to befall His people, it seems odd that you would say that God never allowed misfortunes or tests to befall his People.

Why would it change just because it is at the end of time.

A lone Raven


#17

originally posted by JCPeacekeeper’s wife
I am the one who has studied the Catholic beliefs for over 5 years, off and on.

If you’ve “studied the Catholic beliefs for over 5 years, off and on”, I’d say you didn’t learn much of what The Church actually teaches.
After reading your posts, I would suggest that instead of telling us what we believe, you ask us because you are confused.


#18

If you are reading the Bible then you would see why many (not all) of the dogmas are not found in the scriptures. Many people can read something and not really intake what it is saying. Many times it takes reading it a few times. Even praying about it so he can open your mind to it’s meaning.

Webster’s Dictionary: prayer- a devout petition to God or an object of worship…remember Exodus 20:4

The apparitions are more of my husbands field! I am going to give a few CCC that speak about Mary. You can then draw your own conclusion on what role Mary play in the catholic Church. Just so we are clear on one thing before I continue, I think Mary is very blessed. She carried and raised our savior. I believe she is everything the scripture says she is.

Okay now those CCC’s, 411,490-511,966,969,971,2677-2678. The fact is she is the mother of the son of Man, Jesus in the FLESH. Not the mother of God. Joseph also didn’t know her UNTIL she gave birth to her first born son (matt. 1:25). Sorry to say but they did have other children. They were not cousins. “Brother” in Greek is adelphos which describes a “blood brother.” Plus she didn’t remain sinless. She herself said she was in need of a savior (Luke 1:47). Also in Romans 3:23 Paul said “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” He did not continue with, except for Mary the mother of God, and he knew her personally. Look into when these doctrines of Mary were proclaimed. Now let’s compare the attributes of Jesus and the Catholic Mary…
Jesus ; Mary
conceived of the Holy Spirit; Immaculately Conceived
The Son of God ; The Mother of God
Born without sin; Born without sin
Committed no sin ; Committed no sin
Suffered on Calvary’s cross ; Suffered at Calvary’s Cross
Body Ascended into glory ; Body Assumed into glory
King of Heaven ; Queen of Heaven
Prince of Peace; Queen of Peace
Source of Grace ; Channel of all grace
Redeemer ; Co-Redeemer
Mediator ; Mediatrix
Advocate ; Advocate
Second Adam ; Second Eve

I think that speaks for it’s self.


#19

I think it doesn’t. You have an obvious ignarance of, not only the Scriptures, but of what the Church believes. I could write a ten post reply to your post, but let me give you a few simple, random examples of your errors from the laundry list you gave:

Jesus ; Mary
conceived of the Holy Spirit; Immaculately Conceived
These are two entirely different things! Jesus was born of Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit, but Mary was born of two human parents, though by a special grace of God, preserved from sin.
The Son of God ; The Mother of God
This is a no-brainer: If Jesus is God, and Mary is his Mother – *viola! *Mary is the Mother of God.
Born without sin; Born without sin
As mentioned above, Mary was preserved from sin by a special grace from God. This doesn’t mean she had to be a God, only a recipient of God’s special grace.
Committed no sin ; Committed no sin
Again, there are other ways to explain someone being sinless without presuming they are divine. One does not necessarily lead to another.
The rest of the equally silly charges can be dealt with similarly. If you are going to repeat tired old anti-Catholic charges, you’d better do your homework before you come in here. They might work on the type of poor, hapless Catholic you are used to pummeling with misinformation, but not here.

We more than welcome sincere questions about the Faith here (especially asked one at a time and in a non-confrontational manner), but we will not roll-over for tired and crass charges we’ve heard and refuted a zillion times before. :slight_smile:


#20

Why should I ask you what you believe? I am stating what the Catholic Church believes (CCC) compared to the Word of God. I don’t have to answer to God for what you believe, you do. If you ask a priest a question about the church’s beliefs, he will refer you to the catechism. So that is what I have done.

Have you ever heard of reading the fine print? You have to ask yourself what you believe. The Bible or the Catechism, because they are not one in the same. I am not confused about the differences in the two books. It does seem that you may not have full knowledge of the Doctrines in the Catholic Church, yet when you joined the CC you got every belief that came along with it. I guess you could choose to be luke warm, and take the bits and pieces that suite you. It’s either all or nothing. The bible is either all true or not true at all.


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