The real issue--for Muslims


#1

The central point of difference between Christians and Muslims is the doctrine of the Incarnation. We believe that Jesus Christ is God incarnate. You believe that this is blasphemy. In the first serious religious conversation I ever had with a Muslim, this boiled down to the question: Did God go to the bathroom? Christians say yes, Muslims say no.

So my question to Muslims is: Why do you believe that the Incarnation is impossible and blasphemous? If God is all-powerful, then why is it impossible for God to humble Himself to become part of His own creation? If God created our physical bodies, how can it be improper for God to become a human being with a physical body?

Christians and Jews believe that human beings are created in God’s image. If that is true, then why is it unfitting for God to become incarnate as a human being, making that human being the true and perfect image of God? If you do not believe that human beings are created in God’s image, why do you not believe it?

I hope we can get a conversation going that focuses on the real points at issue between us, instead of each of us trying to snipe at some perceived flaw in the other’s religion.

Peace be upon you all,

Edwin


#2

[quote=Contarini]The central point of difference between Christians and Muslims is the doctrine of the Incarnation. We believe that Jesus Christ is God incarnate.
[/quote]

Right. Let’s stick to this issue:** IS JESUS REALLY GOD?**

Qur’an says = NO
Bible says =NO

please consider the following points:

1. God is All Knowing…but Jesus was not.

When speaking of the Day of Judgment, Jesus clearly gave evidence of a limitation on his knowledge when he said, **“but of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the son, but the Father.” ** (Mark 13:32 and Matt 24:36) But God knows all. His knowledge is without any limitations. That Jesus, of his own admission, did not know when the Day of Judgment would be, is clear proof that Jesus is not all-knowing, and that Jesus is therefore not God.

2. God is All-Powerful…but Jesus was not.

While Jesus performed many miracles, he himself admitted that the power he had was not his own, but derived from God. He said, **“Verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seethe the Father do…” ** (John 5:19) Again he said, “I can of mine own self do nothing: As I hear I judge, and my judgment is just because **I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me.” ** (John 5:30) But God is not only all-powerful; He is also the source of all power and authority. That Jesus, of his own admission, could do nothing on his own is clear proof that **Jesus is not all-powerful, and that therefore Jesus is not God. **

3. God does not have a God…but Jesus did have a God.

God is the ultimate judge and refuge for all, and He does not call upon nor pray to any others. But Jesus acknowledged that there was one whom he worshipped and to whom he prayed when he said, “I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God.” (John 20:17) He is also reported to have cried out while on the cross, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Matt 27:46) If Jesus were God, then couldn’t this be read “Myself, myself, why hast thou forsaken me?” Would that not be pure nonsense? **When Jesus prayed the Lord’s prayer (Luke 11:2-4) was he praying to himself? When in the garden of Gethsemane he prayed, “O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: Nevertheless, not as I will but as thou wilt.” (Matt 26:36-39) Was Jesus praying to himself? ** That Jesus, of his own admission, and by his own actions, acknowledged, worshipped and prayed to another being as God, is clear proof that Jesus himself is not God.

4. According to the Bible, God is invisible to humans…but Jesus was flesh and blood.

While thousands saw Jesus and heard his voice, Jesus himself said that this could not be done with God when he said, “** No man hath seen God at any time.” (John 1:18) “Ye have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape.” ** (John 5:37) He also said in John 4:24, “God is a spirit and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” That Jesus would say that no one had seen or heard God ant any time, while his followers both saw and heard him, is clear proof that Jesus was not God.

5. No one is greater than God and no one can direct Him…but Jesus acknowledged someone greater than himself whose will was distinct from his own.

Perhaps the clearest indication we have that Jesus and God are not equal, and therefore not one and the same, come again from the mouth of Jesus himself who said in **John 14:28, “My Father is greater than I.” ** When someone referred to him as a **“good master” in Luke 18:19, Jesus responded, “Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God…” **

Further more, Jesus drew clear distinctions between himself and God when he said, **“I proceeded forth and came from God, neither came I of myself but He sent me.” ** (John 8:42) Jesus gave clear evidence of his subordination to God, rather than his equality with God, when he said in Luke 22:42, “not my will but thine be done,” and in John 5:30, **“I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me.” **

That Jesus would admit that he did not come into the world on his own initiative but was directed to do so, that he would acknowledge another being as greater than himself, and that he would negate his own will in deference to affirming the will of another, give clear proof that Jesus is not the Supreme One and therefore** Jesus is not God. **

The above verses are clear and explicit evidence that Jesus is not God. Those who persist in believing that he is divine only use implicit verses to support their claim.

peace,

deen


#3

[quote=deen]The above verses are clear and explicit evidence that Jesus is not God. Those who persist in believing that he is divine only use implicit verses to support their claim.
[/quote]

deen,

Let’s put this myth to bed.

  	 				"In the beginning was the Word, andthe Word was with God **and the Word was God**....**And the Word became flesh** and dwelt among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father's only Son, full of grace and truth. John testified to him saying, 'This was he of whom I said, "The one who comes after me ranks ahead of me" '" (John 1:1, 14-15).

“Jesus said to them, ‘I solemnly assure you, before Abraham was I AM…The Father and I are one.’ The Jews again picked up rocks to stone him. Jesus answered them, ‘I have shown you many good works from my Father. For which of these are you trying to stone me?’ The Jews answered him, ‘We are not stoning you for a good work but for blasphemy. You, a man, are making yourself God’” (John 8:58-59, 10:31-33 [see Ex. 3:13-15, 20:7, Lev. 19:12, 24:14-16]).

   ...Here we see Jesus *explicitly* claim the title of God for Himself...

“Thomas answered and said to him, `My Lord and my God!’” (John 20:28).

   ...And there is no rebuke.  It would have been sinful for Jesus to have allowed this...

“Keep watch over yourselves and over the whole flock over which the Holy Spirit has appointed you overseers, in which you tend the Church of God that** he acquired with his own blood**” (Acts 20:28 [c.f. Eph. 1:7; 1 John 1:7]).

…By the blood OF GOD…

“We must be . . . waiting in hope for the blessing which will come with the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ” (Tit. 2:13).

…this is as explicit as you’re going to get…

Quick reference list:
Jn 1;1 - the Word was God
Jn 1:14-15 - glory of Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth
Jn 8:19 - if you knew me, you would know my Father
Jn 8:58-59 - I assure you, before Abraham was, I AM
Jn 10:30-33 - the Father and I are one (see Ex 3:14, 20:7; Lev 19:12, 24:14-16)
Jn 10:38 - the Father is in me and I am in the Father
Jn 12:45 - whosoever sees me sees the one who sent me
Jn 14:8-12 - whoever had seen has seen the Father
Jn 20:28 - Jesus accepts Thomas’s "my Lord and my God"
Col 2:9 - in him dwells whole fullness of deity bodily
Acts 20:28 - church of God he acquired with his blood
Eph 1:7 - in him we have redemption by his blood
1Jn 1:7 - blood of his Son Jesus cleanses from all sin
Tit 2;13 - glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

Nearly 2 BILLION people believe that Jesus is God based on the words of the Bible. What you have done is rip verses out of context to try and prove your point. I would refute them one by one (and maybe someone else will), but as you don’t see it as authoritative I find it useless.

Again, the bible very expliclicitly claims Jesus is God.
Koran = no
Bible = yes

That said, would you please answer the original questions? Is it **beyond **the power of God to become man?

Peace be with you,
RyanL


#4

Ryan,

Thank you.

Dan L


#5

Implicit verses are perfectly acceptable when you have the Living Word of God in Sacred Tradition and taught by a living magisterium consisting of successors of the divinely-appointed apsotles. It’s interesting that a muslim would use an argument from the Protestant Sola Scriptura… :hmmm:

Scott


#6

No, but He will NOT do it (to become a man) because it does not befit HIS MAJESTY.

Peace,

deen


#7

[quote=RyanL]deen,

Let’s put this myth to bed.

Nearly 2 BILLION people believe that Jesus is God based on the words of the Bible. What you have done is rip verses out of context to try and prove your point. I would refute them one by one (and maybe someone else will), but as you don’t see it as authoritative I find it useless.

Again, the bible very expliclicitly claims Jesus is God.
Koran = no
Bible = yes

That said, would you please answer the original questions? Is it **beyond **the power of God to become man?

Peace be with you,
RyanL
[/quote]

So where did Jesus say: “MAKE NO MISTAKE. I AM GOD, WORSHIP ME.”

As for your implicit verses, I will tackle them one by one…God Willing.

peace,

deen


#8

**CHECK THIS OUT! **

In “**The New Catholic Encyclopedia” ** (Bearing the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur, indicating official approval) we get a glimpse of how the concept of the **Trinity was not introduced into Christianity until close to four hundred years after Jesus (pbuh): **

“…It is difficult in the second half of the 20th century to offer a clear, objective and straightforward account of the revelation, doctrinal evolution, and theological elaboration of the Mystery of the trinity. Trinitarian discussion, Roman Catholic as well as other, present a somewhat unsteady silhouette. Two things have happened. There is the recognition on the part of exegetes and Biblical theologians, including a constantly growing number of Roman Catholics, that one should not speak of Trinitarianism in the New Testament without serious qualification.

There is also the closely parallel recognition on the part of historians of dogma and systematic theologians that when one does speak of an unqualified Trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origins to, say, the last quadrant of the 4th century. It was only then that what might be called the definitive Trinitarian dogma ‘One God in three Persons’ became thoroughly assimilated into Christian life and thought … it was the product of 3 centuries of doctrinal development” (emphasis added).
“The New Catholic Encyclopedia” Volume XIV, p. 295.

Tom Harpur writes in his book “For Christ’s Sake”:

“What is most embarrassing for the church is the difficulty of proving any of these statements of dogma from the new Testament documents. You simply cannot find the doctrine of the Trinity set out anywhere in the Bible. St. Paul has the highest view of Jesus’ role and person, but **nowhere does he call him God. ** Nor does Jesus himself anywhere explicitly claim to be the second person in the Trinity, wholly equal to his heavenly Father. As a pious Jew, he would have been shocked and offended by such an Idea…(this is) in itself bad enough. But there is worse to come. This research has lead me to believe that the great majority of regular churchgoers are, for all practical purposes, tritheists. That is, they profess to believe in one God, but in reality they worship three…”

In** “The Dictionary of the Bible,” ** bearing the Nihil Obstat, Imprimatur, and Imprimi Potest (official Church seals of approval), we read:

“the trinity of God is defined by the Church as the belief that in God are three persons who subsist in one nature. That belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly and formally a biblical belief.”
The Dictionary of the Bible, John L. McKenzie, S.J., p. 899

NO COMMENT :smiley:

deen


#9

[quote=deen]No, but He will NOT do it (to become a man) because it does not befit HIS MAJESTY.
[/quote]

Just to make sure…you are claiming that you are entitled to decide what is befitting for God to do and what is not?

Also, thank you for confirming that this is definitely something that God CAN do.

RyanL


#10

[quote=deen]**CHECK THIS OUT!

**
NO COMMENT
[/quote]

Piece of advice about Catholic Theology - don’t try this at home. You don’t know what you’re talking about, and ruthlessly ripping things out of context won’t further your cause.

Claiming that the Bible doesn’t teach the divinity of Jesus or that the Trinity can’t be inferred throughout the scriptures is a weak argument.

You don’t know the Bible half as well as you think you do. Please stop trying to (mis)use it. Since you think it is a mix of lies and truth anyway, I don’t see why you keep appealing to it as a source of authority. Unless you are willing to hear it as a source of authority, I will not explain the context of your quotes.

Finally, you continue to neglect the role of Sacred Tradition and the writings of the Early Church Fathers. We do not hold that the Bible is the sole authority for all doctrinal matters. You mistakenly argue that we do, mainly because you do not understand. Again, as for Catholic Theology - don’t try this at home.

RyanL


#11

[quote=deen]So where did Jesus say: “MAKE NO MISTAKE. I AM GOD, WORSHIP ME.”
[/quote]

It is perfectly in line with Catholic Theology for Jesus to have not said this. This is a proud, boastful, and arrogent statement; it would undermine what Jesus taught for this to be the case, and would be completely illogical in the Catholic understanding. Make no mistake - He refers to Himself with the divine title “I AM”, but He never attempts to place *Himself *upon His throne. That is bestowed upon Him by the Father. Trying to claim divinity for yourself was the sin of Lucifer. Jesus was the Messiah, or The Annointed One - He did not annoint Himself.

Once again, feel free not to respond to this. This is Catholic Theology, which you shouldn’t try on your own.

RyanL


#12

[left][size=2]deen,
[/size]
[/left]
[left][size=2]Since you seem intent on using my sources, I thought I might as you some questions:

[/size]
[/left]
[size=2]The Qu’ran says the Bible is not corrupt[/size]

The Muslims repeatedly claim that the Bible has been corrupted and that the Qu’ran is the only trustworthy scripture in existence. This is why Muslims often attack the Bible. But this cannot be acording to the Quran. The Quran says that the books of Moses, the Psalms, and the gospel were all given by God. **
TORAH** - “We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers,” (Sura 2:87).**
PSALMS** - “We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma’il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms,” (4:163).**
GOSPEL** - “It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong),” (3:3).

Also, “And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah,” (5:46).

[list]
[/list] We see that the Qu’ran states that the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel were all given by God. With this we Christians heartily agree. But, the Muslims claim that the Bible is corrupted and full of contradictions. If that is so, then it would seem they do not believe the Qu’ran since the Qu’ran says that the Word of God cannot be altered:

“Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers,” (6:34).

“The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all,” (6:115).

“For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present and in the Hereafter; no change can there be in the words of Allah. This is indeed the supreme felicity,” (10:64).

[list]
[/list]
When Muhammed (570 - 632) was alive, he claimed to receive the revelation of the Qu’ran from Allah. This means that at that time, the Bible which was in existence, could not have been corrupted because the Qu’ran states that God’s word cannot be corrupted. The question I have for the Muslims is “When and where was the Bible corrupted, since the Qu’ran says that the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel are from Allah and Allah’s words cannot be changed?”

RyanL


#13

[quote=deen]Right. Let’s stick to this issue:** IS JESUS REALLY GOD?**
[/quote]

Deen, with all due respect that is not the issue I raised. There are two basic Christological issues at stake between Christians and Muslims. The first is whether God could become incarnate (and whether it is fitting and in keeping with the general tenor of divine revelation for Him to do so), and the second is whether the man Jesus of Nazareth (whom we both agree was a messenger of God) was God Incarnate.

I have no objections whatever to discussing the Biblical evidence pertaining to the second question. But I would very much like to get your answers to the issues I raised with regard to the first question. It seems to me that Muslims and Christians have radically different conceptions of God because of our difference concerning the Incarnation. As a Christian, I’m disposed to trust the historic witness of the Church that Jesus was God Incarnate because the God I experience in Scripture is the sort of God who would become Incarnate.

No one simply goes to a sacred text and compiles the evidence for a question like this in a neutral fashion. We are all influenced by our preconceptions with regard to the sort of thing God is likely to do. What is clear to me from my brief conversations with Muslims is that for Muslims Incarnation is just not the sort of thing you could imagine God doing. And that’s the issue I hoped to address. We can argue all day long about proof-texts.

Furthermore, such an argument is likely to be self-defeating, because neither of us holds a fundamentalist Protestant view of the Bible, in which you can simply take the Bible as a sort of handbook of religious truth and deduce all true doctrine from it. You reject this view because you don’t accept the Bible as it stands as the pure, inspired Word of God. I reject it because I believe that we must read the Bible in the context of historic Christian witness. So it would be futile to argue about whether one could deduce the full divinity of Christ from the Bible alone without regard to the historic teaching of the Christian Church. It isn’t a relevant question for either of us. You should find a Baptist if you want to have that discussion.

That being said, I don’t want to evade the very valid exegetical points you raise. So I will start another thread dealing with those objections.

Peace,

Edwin


#14

Deen,

I did start such a thread, and unfortunately my very long post got lost. I will post again, but will not be able to do so this evening since I have limited time. My apologies.

Edwin


#15

To an outsider and relatively neutral observer (neither Muslim nor Catholic), it seems that Muslims and Christians mean slightly different things when they talk about ‘God’. Perhaps you guys should first define what or who ‘God’ is, before tackling the more problematic question of whether Jesus is God.

I have some thoughts to share. It seems that Muslims stress God’s transcendence, his majesty, as well as his compassion and mercy. Muslims define God as that being who completely is free of limitation, and all-powerful, all-knowing, all-wise. For Christians, though, it seems that God the Father would fit that Muslim definition of God, but not God the Son (Christ). So even though both parties are using the word ‘God’, each side has different meanings and denotations they it associates with that word. E.g., if God is by definition not limited, then it would be impossible for such a God to take human form. And, in fact, the Christian God the Father doesn’t take human form, even though God the Son does.

So maybe you fellows need to ask, not if Jesus is God, but whether ‘God the Son’ is a real being, what its characteristics are, and whether it appears in Islam, but perhaps under a different name and manifestation.


#16

[quote=RyanL]Just to make sure…you are claiming that you are entitled to decide what is befitting for God to do and what is not?
[/quote]

No kidding. I knew God was transcendent, but not stuck-up.


#17

[quote=deen]No, but He will NOT do it (to become a man) because it does not befit HIS MAJESTY.

Peace,

deen
[/quote]

Now we seem to be getting somewhere…

So: why does it not befit God’s Majesty to become man ? ##


#18

[quote=RyanL][left][size=2]deen,

[/size]

[size=2]Since you seem intent on using my sources, I thought I might as you[/size] some questions:

[/left]

[size=2]The Qu’ran says the Bible is not corrupt[/size]

The Muslims repeatedly claim that the Bible has been corrupted and that the Qu’ran is the only trustworthy scripture in existence. This is why Muslims often attack the Bible. But this cannot be acording to the Quran. The Quran says that the books of Moses, the Psalms, and the gospel were all given by God.
TORAH - “We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers,” (Sura 2:87).
PSALMS - “We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma’il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms,” (4:163).****
****GOSPEL - “It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong),” (3:3).

Also, “And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah,” (5:46).

We see that the Qu’ran states that the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel were all given by God. With this we Christians heartily agree. But, the Muslims claim that the Bible is corrupted and full of contradictions. If that is so, then it would seem they do not believe the Qu’ran since the Qu’ran says that the Word of God cannot be altered:

“Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers,” (6:34).

“The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all,” (6:115).

“For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present and in the Hereafter; no change can there be in the words of Allah. This is indeed the supreme felicity,” (10:64).

When Muhammed (570 - 632) was alive, he claimed to receive the revelation of the Qu’ran from Allah. This means that at that time, the Bible which was in existence, could not have been corrupted because the Qu’ran states that God’s word cannot be corrupted. The question I have for the Muslims is “When and where was the Bible corrupted, since the Qu’ran says that the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel are from Allah and Allah’s words cannot be changed?”

RyanL

[/quote]

If the Bible were corrupt - the supposed references to Muhammad in it might be among the corrupt passages.

Muslim apologists cannot have it both ways:

Either it is sufficiently uncorrupted to be usefully used by Muslims for them to argue from it

Or it is corrupted so that they cannot safely build anything upon it: such as arguments against Christian belief. ##


#19

greetings everyone.

[quote=Contarini]The central point of difference between Christians and Muslims is the doctrine of the Incarnation. We believe that Jesus Christ is God incarnate. You believe that this is blasphemy. In the first serious religious conversation I ever had with a Muslim, this boiled down to the question: Did God go to the bathroom? Christians say yes, Muslims say no.

So my question to Muslims is: Why do you believe that the Incarnation is impossible and blasphemous? If God is all-powerful, then why is it impossible for God to humble Himself to become part of His own creation? If God created our physical bodies, how can it be improper for God to become a human being with a physical body?

Christians and Jews believe that human beings are created in God’s image. If that is true, then why is it unfitting for God to become incarnate as a human being, making that human being the true and perfect image of God? If you do not believe that human beings are created in God’s image, why do you not believe it?

I hope we can get a conversation going that focuses on the real points at issue between us, instead of each of us trying to snipe at some perceived flaw in the other’s religion.

Peace be upon you all,

Edwin
[/quote]

i don’t think it’s correct to narrow it down to just the doctrine of the incarnation for the simple fact that not all christians adhere to this belief. some chistians believe that Jesus was only God’s son and not God himself. every christian i’ve known throughtout my life (all of various sects and denominations) has always given a slightly different answer when asked what their belief was regarding Jesus.

due to this, aside from the acceptance/rejection of muhammad as a prophet and messenger of God, i’d say that the real central point of difference between muslims and christians is their actual belief in God (Allah); who He is and what He is. muslim belief can be summed up in the verses of the 3rd last chapter of the Quran; soorah al-ikhlaas (chapter of sincerity); a belief of the uniqueness and oneness of God, whereas the vast majority of christians believe in the doctrine of the trinity, where God is one of three; God the father, God the son and God the holy spirit.

as for your questions, then the answer lies within the Quran itself and the many verses that emphasis and reiterate time and time again that God is one, without any partners or equals, that He is unique and that there is nothing similar to Him, just as is mentioned in a number of Quranic verses (one of which states, “there is nothing like Him and He is the Seeing, the Hearing.” another is the last verse of soorah al-ikhlaas, “and there is no one comparable to Him.”), and that He is far removed from any sort of imperfections, that He is seperate and distinct from His creation and that He is living and never dies.

[quote=RyanL]The Quran says that the books of Moses, the Psalms, and the gospel were all given by God.

We see that the Qu’ran states that the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel were all given by God. With this we Christians heartily agree. But, the Muslims claim that the Bible is corrupted and full of contradictions. If that is so, then it would seem they do not believe the Qu’ran since the Qu’ran says that the Word of God cannot be altered

When Muhammed (570 - 632) was alive, he claimed to receive the revelation of the Qu’ran from Allah. This means that at that time, the Bible which was in existence, could not have been corrupted because the Qu’ran states that God’s word cannot be corrupted. The question I have for the Muslims is “When and where was the Bible corrupted, since the Qu’ran says that the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel are from Allah and Allah’s words cannot be changed?”

[/quote]

ryan, what you propose here is not correct. it is taking parts of the Quran and leaving others. it is also quoting verses out of context.

firstly, there are verses in the Quran explicitly stating that the jews altered and corrupted their scriptures (i will provide reference when i have time to look it up, as it’s late and i don’t have time to do so now).

secondly, you assume that the psalms and the gospels found in today’s bible are the same as those mentioned in the Quran. with specific regard to the Gospel sent to Jesus, it does not exist in today’s bible. what does exist in it are 4 gospels according to 4 different authors; matthew, mark, luke and john. there is no Gospel of Jesus, only gospels according to these 4 authors.

thirdly, the verses you quote regarding there being no changer (the verses aren’t translated accurately. the word in verses is mubaddil, which means one who changes something) for God’s words are taken out of context. a quick check of the Quranic exegisis will show this. in the three verses you quoted, “God’s words” in all three refer to His decrees and promises of reward for the believers (ref. tafseer ibn katheer, tafseer as-sa’dee, tafseer al-jalaalain, as well as others). they do not refer to the scriptures He revealed to His prophets and messengers.

add on: as for muslim belief regarding the bible, then the belief is that it contains truths as well as falsehoods. it contains what was once revelation as well as the alterations made by those who made them. the bible is neither believed in as a whole by muslims, nor disbelieved in as a whole.


#20

[quote=deen]No, but He will NOT do it (to become a man) because it does not befit HIS MAJESTY.

Peace,

deen
[/quote]

it absolutely befits his majesty. he created us, and then he became one of us. Christ was God here on earth. He will do it, he did do it and someday he will do it again. Christ is God, the Bible supports that. bye the way, where did the koran come from? is it from allah or from some other man?


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