The REAL PRESENCE is always REAL


#1

Ave Maria!
As I begin, I want to state my complete fidelity to Pope Benedict XVI and the Magisterium. I have recently become reacquainted with an old friend who has become what she terms a “traditionalist”. I was scandalized in her discussion with me that she does not believe that the REAL PRESENCE of OUR LORD is present in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass or the churches where the Novus Ordo Mass is celebrated. Even further she said that even if the Tridentine Mass is celebrated in a church where the Novus Ordo Mass is celebrated that church is contaminated and she will not go there. Now I ask you…is this not blasphemy and heresy? I was taught and firmly believe unto death that the Real Presence of Our Lord is present in every Mass where the priest celebrates with the right intention, with proper matter and with the formula. Whether the priest says f"or all" or “for many”, I believe this point will be corrected by the present Pope shortly in his anticipated Motu Proprio, but what I am aghast at is the audacity of such persons to appropriate Our Lord simply to themselves outside the Roman Catholic Church and believe themselves to be the persecuted church as they condemn everyone else. What the Lord seeks is obedience to the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. I do not believe that one errs if he or she if obedient, even should things go awry, for of course, the members of the Church are human and sin is always a human condition to struggle against. I pray with all the efforts Our Holy Father is making to heal this fissure within the Church that these persons may repent of their grave error and pride and come back to the harbor of the Faith, lest they be eternally shipwrecked. For the Lord promised to be with his Church always even unto the consummation of the world. How could such people insult Our Lord Jesus Christ and the members of his mystical body so harshly. I assist both at the Novus Ordo and Traditional Latin Mass and am open the presence of the the Most Holy Trinity at both rites. Most of all, because of God’s presence within me I can make reparation as Our Lady of Fatima and the Angel instructed the children, against the sacriliges, outrages and indifferences in which Our Lord is offended. This is our call…not to deny Christ in His Church or in his brethren. I would like to hear responses as how I can bring this old acquaintance back to the Church. Please keep this in prayer.
In Jesus and Mary Immaculate
Marygraces


#2

This particular topic has been beat to death on this forum and is usually brought up in an attempt to cause dissension and start a squabble between Traditionalists and Liberals. While I personally love a good brawl here, most do not, so I will refrain from answering this obviously loaded question and I hope that others also recognize what this post really is all about.

And yes I will say it here also
PALMAS 85 IS MEAN SPIRITED AND UNCHARITABLE.


#3

I agree with what you said 100%.


#4

Cue the music…

“Don’t go changin’
To try and please me…”

:smiley:


#5

And I wouldn’t have you any other way :thumbsup:


#6

As a new member of Catholic Answers Forums I was not aware that this issue has already been responded to. I would appreciate hearing from more decent and less judgemental readers than palmas85. What is old to you, may be a present concern to someone else. There is no hidden agenda here, which is what you are claiming.


#7

Sorry that I am not decent enough for you, I have been accused of many things on this forum but being indecent was never one of them. I shall have to add that one to my unofficial title.

As for being judgemental, well, as humans we judge things every day. I do, just as you do.:slight_smile:

I do hope you find an answer to this dilemma that you find yourself in.

PALMAS 85 IS MEAN SPIRITED, UNCHARITABLE AND INDECENT: :bigyikes: :bigyikes:


#8

The search facility is excellent.


#9

Those are some of the nicer and cleaner adjectives used to describe me on here LOL :slight_smile: I actually enjoy your posts…


#10

I’m sorry your friend doesn’t believe in the Real Presence Mary, it brothers me as well when I hear this kind of thing. As someone pointed out you can use the “search” and look this up as there probably has been many threads on this topic. But I think you were coming in here looking for validation and I can’t blame you. :slight_smile: Perhaps you might be able to change your friends mind on things at some point.


#11

Thank you so much, anamchara. That is exactly what I was looking for as well as some ideas about how to deal with this issue. This friend of mine is very convinced about her views but I cannot tolerate this sedevacantist kind of talk and especially statements denying the real presence of our Lord. I wish there were some particular stream of argument to convince her that the true Church is still present, as is the real Pope, and the Real Presence. I have since been search the forums more intensely. But thank you so much for your kind welcome and support. God Bless you.:slight_smile:


#12

You are welcome Mary :slight_smile: You might want to try posting your problem with your friend in apologetics, you could probably get some more help in there. Many on here are very well versed in that area. I wish you luck my friend. :wink:


#13

Welcome, Marygraces, and may you find much help and friendship in Catholic Answers.

Here is one answer to your question:

Many schismatic Catholics have even argued that the Mass promulgated by Vatican II, when celebrated in English or many other translations, is invalid due to its improper translation Christ’s words.

Cardinal Arinze’s letter says that, as supported by previous declarations from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, “there is no doubt whatsoever regarding the validity of Masses celebrated with the use of a duly approved formula containing a formula equivalent to ‘for all.’”

Being a new member, I can see how difficult it is to learn how to search a forum and many have difficulty even when they have been here awhile. Let me know if you need help, for I have a short article that may be helpful.

It is so sad that you did not receive a welcome, but an unpleasant lack of charity from the customary group in this section. Note well their names, for you will find them gathered whenever someone speaks well of the N.O. mass. It isn’t YOU, it’s your principles that are being withstood.

God bless you.


#14

[quote=Palmas]While I personally love a good brawl here, most do not, so I will refrain from answering this obviously loaded question and I hope that others also recognize what this post really is all about.
[/quote]

Guilty until proven innocent? I would be mortified to have you on my jury, for I see you have already invited the “others” to agree with you. What a shame to welcome a new person in this manner!


#15

I will give a short answer.

I attend an indult parish, and I know a few people who will NOT recieve communion if the priest reaches into the tabernacle for more hosts. (For fear they might have been concecrated at a Novus Ordo and be invalid. Despite that your favorite philosopher and mine, Thomas Aquinas, said that if unconcecrated hosts are mixed with concecrated ones, they will become concecrated. And please don’t ask me to look that up. :P)

Regardless, they never follow their logic back to its roots. If the Novus Ordo is invalid, that means my priests Holy Orders are invalid. After all, it was done during a Novus Ordo with the new order of ordination. So that means even the Tridentine Hosts are not valid!

Even if they attend a FSSP parish, or all Tridentine parish, a Bishop along the lines was ordained during a Novus Ordo. (Except the SSPX of course).

If someone wants to think that, it makes a lot of scary implications.


#16

I am quit shocked at the lack of charity some of the posters here have given to marygracies. I ask you who have responded in such an unchristian way to look deep into yourselves and try to see how hurtful your actions can be. We are not to be so judgmental of others, that is not what we are called to do, but to be charitable to others.

Marygracies, I hope that you do not feel so turned off by these people and decide that CAF is not the place for you, for there are many here who are very knowledgeable and are eager to help.

I will pray for those of you who feel it okay to mock and ridicule those seek answers.


#17

you may want to add, after ‘indecent,’ ’ and a coxcomb.’ I mean, if you are taking suggestions, that is…


#18

Dear Marygraces,

Unfortunately, our search function is presently disabled. I’m not sure if it is temporary or permanent. That doesn’t help you very much, does it…

I missed this wording in your post until today,

Even further she said that even if the Tridentine Mass is celebrated in a church where the Novus Ordo Mass is celebrated that church is contaminated and she will not go there. Now I ask you…is this not blasphemy and heresy?

It occurred to me she may have innocently logged on to one of those radical traditionist websites that does promote this … and she may be innocently deceived, for they present their propaganda in such a way as to appear true. You may be her only hope to hear a morsel of Divine Truth, so I pray you may be patient with her for the time being. Question her openness and discern whether she is sincerely seeking or firmly obstinate. Trust your gut on this, for the Lord will give you insight.

I’m not sure what I posted previously was the help you needed, but here is a beautiful document on the Eucharist that you can use to instruct her.
A few excellent points regarding the real presence:

  1. The Council of Trent, in three decrees, defined Eucharistic doctrine after the Protestant Reformation, particularly in regard to the true, real and substantial presence of the Lord Jesus, true God and true Man, in the species of bread and wine. It also affirmed that the Body of the Lord is present not only under the appearance of bread but also of wine and his Blood is present not only under the appearance of wine but also of bread. Furthermore, the Lord Jesus Christ is also present in each species with his soul and divinity. Thus, Christ, the Father’s Word, true God and true Man, is present whole and entire under the two species and in each of them. The same Council also defined transubstantiation, the manner of receiving communion and the relation between the unbloody sacrifice of the Mass and the bloody sacrifice of the cross.
  1. In receiving the one bread, we enter into one life and we become one Body of the Lord. The effect of the Eucharist is to join Christians who were once scattered into the unity of the one bread and the one cup. Consequently, communion can be received only in union with the whole Church, after overcoming any separation because of religion or morality.

Apparently, she doesn’t believe the N.O. is the “whole” church, and I have truly seen this terrible error on those sites.

I sure hope you didn’t leave us?


#19

It is so sad that you did not receive a welcome, but an unpleasant lack of charity from the customary group in this section. Note well their names, for you will find them gathered whenever someone speaks well of the N.O. mass. It isn’t YOU, it’s your principles that are being withstood.

God bless you.

Me! Me! Put me on the list!
Although I attend an NO Holy Mass, somehow I’m not speaking well of it.

That’s okay. I understand.


#20

Hi Marygraces! Welcome to CAF.
You might want to post this in Apologetics. The answers are there and if you state that you are new and are looking for this with the search down, people will help you. Check with MariaG and Djrakowski. They are a wealth of information!


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