The Reality of Sex and the Lie of “Gender Self-Identity”

What do you hope to accomplish by asking this question? I understand that in normal debates you need your opponent to define their platform so you can interact with it. I’m not trying to play games with you but as this is a catholic forum most of these concepts mean absolutely nothing to most of you.

Calling @Annie cisgender is a perfect example of this. She argued even if I broke it down for her that cisgender is just someone who wishes to be identified by their birth sex. She has no regard for the spectrum and I can understand why. To her, it doesn’t exist.

So why would I define something like that? Its easier to say “it’s defined by the individual.”
The same as if you legally changed your name.

I’m trying to avoid this for a number of reasons. some of which are this isn’t a formal debate since you could just forget to login and just never reply again. Anything I put forward has no guarantee to be discussed or appreciated. The other is I’m not going to bog you down with the whole spectrum and everything in with all its terms because we wouldn’t never get through them all.

So my goal here is to get you gender is defined by the individual, sex is your physical attribute at birth.

Feel free to google the spectrum on your own time.

You are trying to get us to accept and act on a definition (in this case that gender is an individual choice) that is hazy and certainly not self evident. Nor am I even convinced that the definition, if adopted, would actually be helpful or supportive for the individuals in question. This is a point of contention and one we can’t just breeze by.

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You let people pick their own religion without much to do. I think the real problem is most people can’t separate gender from sex.

Granted it likely doesn’t help that many people in the Capitol T transgender your stereotyped male to female female to male muddies the water by demanding to be sexed according to appearance. Its a touchy issue because we use sex in security (for some reason) and having to be dragged out of line over an M or F aside from being humiliating can lead to other unwarranted consequences.

If I could I would abolish sex on ID. Anyone seeking to infiltrate isn’t going to be daft enough to miss-gender themselves. They’ll want to stay under the radar anyway.
This way we can leave gender like religion up to the person.

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No, you already stated you reject people’s ability to present themselves with the age that they feel.

Careful , you just misgendered those athletes.

Well I’m glad you now concede the major point.

how many types are in this spectrum? nobody knows, which means there is no spectrum.

Condescending and demeaning language just makes arguments look very weak.

As most people who can’t separate age from time.

To you it doesn’t exist, because you can’t list for us the genders that make it up.

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Could you define “gender “ in one sentence. No need to enumerate the variants of gender. Just define the concept.

No, I rejected that its compatible since age is determined by a measurement by society.
We use the Julian solar calendar. Since you equate sex with gender and see it as static of course comparing it to age makes sense. Gender however is about identity. We’ve told people before they can grow up to be whomever they want. If you want to maintain the point that gender is sex full stop then we have nothing further to discuss.
Now I’ll allow you to walk that back and stop beating that horse.

:roll_eyes:

So theres only six colours?

If you don’t see gender separate from sex me throwing what are new terms for you is only going to serve to muddy the water. How about we deal with that point first.
I’m not being condescending, I’m pacing this out one point at a time. We could be talking about the specific points of the spectrum by now if you didn’t need stum that age allegory over and over and over again.

:roll_eyes: That string broke yet? Please let me know when it does so we can move past it.

Let’s just get past the gender isn’t your sex thing and I’ll be happy too.
However, I’ll thank you to remember I did JUST name one above that @Annie disregarded as mentioned.

Gender is a combination of your body, your personal identity and how you present that identity.

What??? When I was in Rome I had to choose between two hostels. One said since I was from Eastern Europe they wondered if I wanted an all girl bedroom since this requested only by Eastern Europeans while Western Europeans, Americans and Australians are fine with a mixed bedroom.
USA never had the add of being a prude. Maybe in certain hippie European societies? USA has always been viewed as highly liberal, emancipated and controversial in Europe. In the East it was always called “The Other USSR”.

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I define my gender as “moonbeam.” That is how a I feel. The thing about us “moonbeams” is that it offends us to ask us about it. Now, I want to compete against women in wrestling events. Us moonbeams like to wrestle, but only if we have a good chance at winning. That’s part of how we identify ourselves.

oh so its societies measurement (not subjective measurement) which governs peoples identity.

you’re just making the argument that gender = sex

Calendar measures time, not age. The calendar won’t tell me my age. It tells me what day it is. And what month. And what year.

You’re confusing time and age, much the same way you’re alleging others confuse sex and gender. Can you please stop denying people their right to define themselves as they see fit? Why are we limiting peoples ability to define themselves?

You’ve given zero argument why gender is about identity but age isn’t.

if you’re referring to human visible spectrum, it actually is defined based on radiation that has a range of 400 nanometers to 700 nanometers , where nanometer is a billionth of a meter.

so back to the question: what are the genders in this spectrum?

If you don’t see age separate from time me throwing what are new terms for you is only going to serve to muddy the water. How about we deal with that point first.

How about this: Gender is your body. That’s all you need to say. How you react to having that body is another story and may or may not be a part of reality.

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I think this takes us further away from understanding the concept. You’ve introduced another term that is even less clear “identity”. What is “personal identity”?

Wait so now people are not free to define their gender as they want since:
(1) they can’t only define their gender based on their body and
(2) they must present that gender ……

I think we’ve already established that body maps to sex. Gender is being used to mean something else - I’m just trying to understand what about ourselves it describes.

You are arguing in bad faith and its getting old.
You see gender as sex correct? You are using age as a stand-in for that similarity. Just because they are both fruit doesn’t make them oranges.

You(plural, anyone reading this not just @Aquinas11) identify your self by your best foot forward whenever you meet someone. You want to make a good impression. You may colour your hair, apply makeup to appear younger. You may wear your best clothes.
You are presenting an identity better than your average. some would argue that is dishonest. You aren’t lying about your age or your looks but in a sense you are.

Age is an attribute, sex is an attribute. Gender is an identity.
Got it?

I’m tired of you arguing in bad faith, you are sidestepping my question:
Are there only 6 colours, yes or no?
((continued))

Its a part not the whole hence…

You still owe me for above, try not to forget.

Also @Rau for your question too.

Agender
a person with no (or very little) connection to the traditional system of gender, no personal alignment with the concepts of either man or woman, and/or someone who sees themselves as existing without gender. Sometimes called gender neutrois, gender-neutral, or genderless.

Androgyny
gender expression that has elements of both masculinity and femininity; 2 adj. : occasionally used in place of “intersex” to describe a person with both female and male anatomy, generally in the form “androgyne.”

Cisgender
a gender description for when someone’s sex assigned at birth and gender identity corresponds in an expected way (someone who was assigned male at birth and identifies as a man). A simple way to think about it is if a person is not transgender, they are cisgender. The word cisgender can also be shortened to “cis.”

Intersex
term for a combination of chromosomes, gonads, hormones, internal sex organs, and genitals that differs from the two expected patterns of male or female. Formerly known as hermaphrodite (or hermaphroditic), but these terms are now outdated and derogatory.

Transsexual
a person who identifies psychologically as a gender/sex other than the one to which they were assigned at birth. Transsexuals often wish to transform their bodies hormonal and surgically to match their inner sense of gender/sex.

That of course doesn’t account for the taste of those individuals (Gay, Lesbian, Bi, Pansexual, Polyamorous, Furry ect.) Feel free to mix and match depending on the person or person in question.

Example Me: I would be called a Cis Straight Furry(otherkin) Polyamours.

not an argument

You(plural, anyone reading this not just @Anrakyr ) identify your self by your best foot forward whenever you meet someone. You want to make a good impression. You may dress up in a womans suit. You may cut your hair to look like a woman. You may wear womens perfume. You may even speak in a higher voice than you have. You may wear pads under your clothes to give the appearance of female figure.
You are presenting an identity different than your average. some would argue that is dishonest. You aren’t lying about your gender but in a sense you are.

You’ve yet to answer how gender identity is unique as a personal identifier to justify subjective choice. You answer that and then you can ask me a question.

you said “combination” so it is not just the body, hence you have dictated gender to people

No, not at all. I feel like you dismiss certain comments without explaining why you disagree with the comments.

Anyway, overall wrt TG people, if people have a problem which causes them distress, then I am not going to try to deny them access to what limited help they can find and I would support research into other solutions.

I do not agree with turning this into a socio-political issue that requires everyone to be on board with agreement to the TG activists’ every demand.

I would also like to see a recognition by the activists that it is possible that some men will use this as a way to get access to victims. Haven’t we had enough imprisoned women assaulted by men claiming to be TG and thus gaining access to women? Instead we get the same old “believe the claimant” for no other reason than they claim to be a member of a “protected” class.

I have no been able to sort out the center of what I see as the problem, so I am bowing out for now.

In a casual conversation I would agree however in a more formal setting with many ears it becomes an admission of guilt.
The other problem is its a non issue. whats to prevent a gay man from doing the same to his own sex? Nothing. You are artificially calling attention to a problem that could already happen and shouldn’t be a point of contention in this issue.

It shouldn’t make a difference.

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Thanks for the effort at definition, though I was only asking about the concept, not for an enumeration of instances.

The things you list Eg intersex are not things a person can “choose”. In the case of intersex - this is a defined physical condition. The other terms also don’t appear to be things chosen, but rather “experienced”.

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Not in the UK. Mixed sex facilities are quite a recent thing here and are not all that common, most places have separate male and female bathrooms.

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