The Reformation: Satan’s fingerprints all over it


#1

Disclaimer: I believe that all baptized Christians (both Catholic and non-Catholic) who die in a state of grace are destined for heaven.

John 17:20 - 23
"I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.

Matthew 12:24 - 26
But when the Pharisees heard it they said, “It is only by Be-el’zebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons.” Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand; and if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?

Satan
The tempter, the accuser, the liar, an angel of light, the imitator, the evil one, prince of demons, the adversary, the slanderer, the wicked one, the murderer, the adversary, the father of lies, the oppressor of the saints, the sower of discord, the enemy of all good, the spirit that works in the children of disobedience.

My premise is that satan has tried to divide Christ’s Church by being the tempter, and the accuser.

When I look upon the divisions among the Christian church today, I can’t help but think of the passage in Matthew where Jesus says that a house divided against itself can not stand, and I wonder to my self if Satan is behind all this division.

We see Satan from the very beginning trying to thwart God’s will. He put doubt in Eve’s mind about God’s words prohibiting the eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He then lead Cain to kill his brother, and so on through out the Bible, Satan is using his evil ways to tempt and trick people to sin and rebel against God.

I can see his handy work in trying to split the Church Jesus established. Even in the New Testament, we see teachers trying to teach false doctrines, twisting scripture to confuse Christians of God’s truth. Satan first confused Eve using God’s own words, and then we even see satan trying to confuse Jesus, when satan is quoting scripture to our Lord. Satan has brought in many heretics through out the ages, trying to confuse Christian, but because the Church was one, the Church was able to put down these heresies by teaching with the authority it was given by Christ.

Satan saw that this wasn’t working as well as hoped.

Satan has always tempted Christians to sin, and he noticed that when the crusaders were tempted to sack Constantinople, it led the Church to split, and with this he remembered Jesus’ words about a house divided can’t stand.

So satan set his evil plan into place.

He tempted the hierarchy of the Church over the next few hundred years to the point that they were evil and depraved in their life styles. They sinned, they blasphemed, they bought and sold positions in the Church and much more.
Then when everything was ripe, he introduced heresy again with Martin Luther.
When the Church tried to stop this heresy, the people looked at this evil filled Church and said that it had no authority to teach.

They accused it of being evil.

So they left communion, and went their own way, and with this satan was able to split the church once again, by being the tempter and the accuser.

This time one of his heresies was able to survive, his plan worked even better that he had planned.

Once the Protestant church split off and it left the teaching authority of the Roman Church, satan was able to introduce many more heresies, and split the church even more until today, we see hundred and thousands of denominations, each claiming to teach what God say’s and each teaching something a little different. This causes confusion among people who are looking for the truth, and they can be led astray easier that if the Church had been speaking with one voice.

I am not saying that Protestants are following satan by following heresies, and I am not saying the Catholic Church is evil or was teaching error, because it was protected by Christ from teaching error. What I am saying is that Satan used men to do his will to split the Church that Jesus established. He will not conquer it, but he has been able to disfigure it so people don’t recognize it as being one, just as Jesus and his Father are one.


#2

#3

I think that only people that accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior will be saved.
runandsew, have you accepted Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, or do you accept the pope as your personal lord and savior.
It is all very plain and simple.
And it is not the Protestants that were fooled by Satan, that is all I have to say.


#4

This is how (from the CCC):

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

Peace,
Dante


#5

Dear runandsew,

Finally, people are beginning to think about deeper issues than just basic apologetics. I have been sick of basic apologetics and going into uncharted territory for some five years now. I want to move beyond the verse slinging and the senseless arguments that never convert anyone to digging deeper. Looking into Salvation history and especially the Church age and meditating and asking in a SPIRITUAL sense, (NOT temporal), where do we go from here? What will happen to this mess. So then you have recognized something I’ve been sharing about on alot of Catholics but that goes ignored or gets dragged offside with debates between ultra-trad schismatics who are feenyites and the misled Protestants.

But this is the decisive apocalyptic question of our times: because they “have NOT been one”, the world has lost the faith it once had. But so then, what, is this it? Will the world now end because it has been INCURABLY scandalized? Or is it possible, in the realm of grace, that by abandoning the confused world that largely cares not about religion in any sense (precisely BECAUSE of the religious confusion) into the CONSEQUENCES of its apostasy, God may in fact MANIFEST all doctrinal and moral errors in and by the minor chastisement, in such a way that the darkness is shown for what it is, and thereby enabling the world, AND all separated Christians, to see the FULLNESS of the light shining in that darkness, thereby RESTORING Christian unity and RE-converting the world to the Gospel, thereby leading the world to nothing short of the fullness of the Gentiles itself, and a glorious Age of Catholic Peace in which there shall be faith and love in men’s hearts to a far greater degree than would have been possible if Christians had never become significantly divided!

That is, as the CCC points out, the ultimate reason that God allows evil is that He may draw (mysteriously! IE, “Let us proclaim the MYSTERY of faith…!”) a greater good than if the evil was never allowed in the first place.

I have an article that probes this in significant depth, runandsew, if you are interested.

May God bless you for contemplating the meaning of salvation history!

In Her Love,
scott
:slight_smile:


#6

Please show me where it literally says this in the Word of God.

runandsew, have you accepted Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, or do you accept the pope as your personal lord and savior.

It would help a great deal if you had the foggiest notion what you are talking about as far as Catholic faith is concerned. This remark shows that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Are Catholics Born Again?
Assurance of Salvation?
Several good articles that you would do well to read.

It is all very plain and simple.
And it is not the Protestants that were fooled by Satan, that is all I have to say.

After about 34 years as a protestant, I would have to disagree with you. My testimony.


#7

Well, this is all off the topic.
I was joking.

I do think that satan has had an influence on God’s church, we can see this through out the old testament and even into the new. Usually the sins were of morality, but there was also anger and revenge involved in the sins which pulled the Jews away from God.
Satan must have read the bible, so he knows how it will end, I think that he wants to pull as many as he can out of it, and keep as many as possible from entering it.


#8

That does not say a protestant will be saved.
Through invincible ignorance a non-catholic MAY be saved. A protestant who has consciously rejected the Catholic Church cannot be said ever to be in a state of grace.


#9

Well, this is off the topic of what my thread is about.
I put that disclaimer in to show that I was not trying to be partial in my thread,I did not put it in there to have a discussion on the question if Protestants can be saved.

My point was that the church is greatly divided, and I was coming up with a theory of why this was so.
This idea of satan trying to divide the church has been on my mind quite a bit when ever I think about how and why it happened.
My theory is simplistic, while the real reasons of the reformation are very complex. But I still think that at the root of it all are supernatural forces at work to undermined God’s will.

And we humans are left standing here pointing fingers and blaming each other, when we should be doing something to correct it.
Adam blamed Eve, Eve blamed the serpent, and the serpent was happy, because he had thwarted God’s will.


#10

These issues do not negate basic apologetics. Both sides are needed. We don’t need to be lopsided in our approach to faith and commitment to winning others to Christ.

I would like to hear though, how you know that basic apologetics never-as you said- covert anyone to digging deeper. Basic apologetics assisted me in converting.

Sometimes, people need the basics before they can delve into deeper issues. If a Catholic doesn’t understand the basic ‘whys’ of his/her faith then it will be impossible for them to understand anything beyond that.


#11

I agree, I do think that it was Satan. How we fix the mess, I don’t know.

I live in the south and I can attest to the fact that being a good witness is important. Not watering down our faith is also important.


#12

I’m curious about your belief. How can a non-Catholic Christian, who rejects the fullness of truth found only in the Catholic Church founded by Christ, die in a state of grace. That’s a contradiction!

Protestant find the fullness of the truth in the Word of God. If you dig hard enought and long enought with the help of the Holy Spirit you will find it too. I have !:bible1:

:amen:
[/quote]


#13

#14

Sorry, I find very little biblical truth in the Catholic Church.


#15

OK, well, actually, you are somewhat right here, I think I worded this too absolute. Yes, there CAN be, and have been, conversions through simply basic apologetics. Yes, I do believe that. I think what i meant more is, there are certain Protestants that come into these forums, and in which threads with basic apologetics run on forever and go nowhere because the Protestants in question are not merely suffering from an intellectual obstacle. Rather, there is some sort of psychological hurt or anger that serves as an impediment to the person’s ability to accept the truth when it is clearly presented. and I think at that point, the argumentation needs to cease, for it is then evident that the persons must pray for one another and end the discussion, or else it leads to lack of charity.

I mean, yeah, there are perhaps many well-meaning Protestants who come to these boards seeking honest answers, and who do not have any serious psychological impediment, but sincerely wish to dialogue and learn. In these instances, I would then agree with you that dialogue and basic apologetics can bear fruit. But like, with some people, they are so far gone that there is nothing you can say to break the barrier. You simply need to pray for them.

Does that make sense? So, again, I apologize for making too broad a statement. I do believe that in some instances, basic apologetics can be fruitful.

And congratulations on your conversion, deb1. I pray blessings for you!

In Her Love,
scott
:slight_smile: :gopray:


#16

All biblical truth is upheld by the Catholic Church; unfortunately, you’re approaching both the Church and the Bible with Protestant presuppositions (the traditions of men) that are blinding you to the truth taught both by the Bible and the Catholic Church.

Jeremy


#17

Uh…don’t you mean “your interpretation” of biblical truth?


#18

What does that mean? It a really pithy quote and I hear it all the time but the explanation i get of what it means(in the rare cases when one can actualy give me a coherent explantion) usually contradicts Scripture and the Teachngs of the Church for the last 2,000 years. Perhaps you can give us an explanation that makes senses.

And it is not the Protestants that were fooled by Satan, that is all I have to say.

It appears we have two choices-either Jesus allowed the Church he founded to exist in grevous error for 1,500 years ,condemining just about every one of his followers to etetrnal damnation OR it took Satan 1,500 years to drive a wedge between the true Church and the 30,000 different other variations that now exist.


#19

Funny since the Bible you use to condemn the Catholic Church exists ONLY becuase of the Catholic Church. Can you tell me why God waited 1,500 years after the death of his Son to revela “the truth”?


#20

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