The Sabbath


#1

Hi folks,

Its herry again. I, following the advice of a gentleman on this forum, read the CA tract “Sabbath or Sunday”. I read it and even I could have written a better defense of the lord’s day, even though I do not regard it at all. It contains 3 verses from scripture (Acts 20:7, and 1 Corinthians 16:2, and Revelation 1:10) which say nothing about a change of the Sabbath, and do more to profane Sunday than establish it as the Sabbath of the new dispensation. It also contained a few quotes form early saints, like Ignatius, and Barnabus.

Now I read your tract for Sunday, so please read my tract on the Sabbath (7th day) “*with early fathers” :wink:

Acts 20:7 says “And upon the first day of the week, when the dsciples came together to break bread, paul preached to them, ready to depart the next morning”. If we continue reading, they were gathered at night. “there were many lights in the upper room” ver.8, and a young man fell asleep in the window as paul was preaching ver. 9. paul was about to travel a long 18 mile foot journey (ver.13) about 18 miles to his ship ver. 13.

The Apostles reckoned the days of the week from sunset to sunset. So they were gathered on saturday night. Paul was about to travel 18 miles on foot to his ship sunday morning --not a good way to Christen a new sabbath. The Apostles gathered to break bread every day of the week (Acts 2:46). Now, if they were gathered Sunday evening, then it would be monday to them, and the point is mute.

1 Corinthians 16:2 says “Upon the first day of the week, let every one of you lay by him in store as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come”

Paul tells them to put into storage the proportionate amount of money to that which God has given them. This would take some bookkeeping. Undoubtedly not a good thing to do on the Sabbath so Paul tells them to do this work on Sunday. Also, he tells them to lay it aside in store, or that is, ‘by himself’, or aside for collection at a later time.

Revelation 1:9-10: “I John, who am also your brother…was on the isle that is called Patmos, for the Word of God, and teh testimony of Jesus. I was in the spirit on the Lord’s day, adn heard behind me a great voice as a trumpet,”

John was a prophet on the island of patmos for the Testimony of Jesus Christ. The testimony of Jesus Christ is the spirit of prophecy (Revelation 19:10), and “the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets, for God is not the author of confusion” (1 Cor. 13:42, 43). God is not the author of confusion, so He would not, througt the pen of Isaiah the prophet call the Sabbath “My Holy Day” (Isaiah 58:13), adn then have John call another day the Lord’s holy day. This verse is conclusive evidence that the Apostle John was keeping Holy the Sabbath day.

Even past Cardinals Gibbons (Baltimore), O’ Connell (Boston), and Dougherty (Philidelphia) have admitted in thier writings that there is no line in scripture establishing Sunday as a holy day, and that it is purely a creation of the Church of Rome.

Athanasius Bishop of Alexanria gives us a scope into how the early Church kept the Sabbath. “We keep the Sabbath not because we are infected with Judaism, but to worship Jesus, the Lord of Sabbath” --Antiquities of the Christian Church, Vol II, book XX

The same Ignatius which tract references says in the extended version of His epistle (found in ANF Vol. 1) to the Mangenesians: “And after he has kept the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep (also) the lord’s day as a feast day”

The Consititutions of the holy Apostels says: “Thou shalt observe the Sabbath day on account of Him who ceased from His works of creation, but not from His works of providence” Constitutions., book II (found in ANF vol. 7).

Finally, John Ley (a sunday keeper) writes in Sunday a Sabbath, which, by the way, is a defense of Sundaykeeping, says: “Firstly, as for the Apostels, thier practice for religious and solemn assemblies on the Jews Sabbath is plain, whereof, they who doubt may read to their own resolution and find satisfaction in Acts 13:42-45,…and other places. Secondly, the from the time of the Apostles until the Laodicean Council, which was about the year 364, the holy observance of the jews Sabbath continued, as may be proved out of many authors, notwithstanding the decree of the council against it” Sunday a Sabbath, p. 163 (1621)

Continued…


#2

In the Laodicean Council, the Roman Catholic Church officially transferred the solemnity of the Sabbath from Saturday, to Sunday, and forbid any Christian to thereafter keep that Sabbath, upon pains of excommunication. Canon XXIX “Christians must not Judaize and keep the sabbath, but rather they must work on that day. And if they can, let them honor Sunday, the lord’s day resting then as Christians. If any shall be found to be Judaizers, let him be anathema” Hefele’s ‘Councils of the Church’, vol. II

And Thus, the Roman Church had clasped hands with the Roman Empire. Called a general council, and found unamimous consent to do this deed of changing God’s law. “Her priests have violated My law, and profaned mine holy things. They have put no difference between the unclean and the clean, and have shewed no difference between the Holy and Profane, and have hid their eyes from my Sabbaths, and I am profaned among them. Moreover, her prophets have daubed my Law with untempered mortar, seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them saying, thus saith the Lord, when the Lord hath not spoken” Ezekiel 22:26, 28

"Because, even they have seduced my people, saying peace; and there was no peace, and lo, one built a wall, and others daubed it with untempered mortar. Say unto them which daub it with untempered mortar, that it shall fall…Lo, when it is fallen, shall it not be said unto you, Where is the daubing wherewith ye have daubed it?..So will I break down the wall that ye have daubed with untemepred mortar…"Ezekiel 13:10, 11,12, 14

“They have daubed my law with untempered mortar…” Ezekiel 22:28

But…We all have a choice to make. If we return to God’s Sabbath which is His mermorial of creation and redemption (Exodus 20:8-1, Hebrews ch. 4)

Then…

“And they that be of thee shall build up the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, the repairer of the breach, the restorer of the paths in which to dwell in. If thou turn thy foot away thy foot on the Sabbath, from doing thine own please on My Holy Day; and call the Sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord…” Isaiah 58:12, 13

The Wall is God’s commandments. God’s commandments are a wall around God’s people. With obediance to God’s commandments, no unconverted soul enters his flock. Jesus said “anyone who enters the sheep fold other than through the gate is a thief”. The breach in the wall is the Sabbath. The stories of Jesus or the apostles changing the Sabbath is the untempered mortar. It is completey absent from scriptrue, and contray to God’s Charachter, He never changes, (Eccl. 3:14, Psalm 111:7, 8, and Hebrews 13:8).

Will you repair the breach…?


#3

The Apostles reckoned the days of the week from sunset to sunset. So they were gathered on saturday night. Paul was about to travel 18 miles on foot to his ship sunday morning --not a good way to Christen a new sabbath. The Apostles gathered to break bread every day of the week (Acts 2:46). Now, if they were gathered Sunday evening, then it would be monday to them, and the point is mute.

You changed horses in midstream.

On the first day of the week when we gathered to break bread, Paul spoke to them because he was going to leave on the next day, and he kept on speaking until midnight.

If it was the next day, it wouldn’t be Sunday morning but either Sunday night, because that would be the begining of the next day, or more likely Monday morining. However, this passage does not prove that it was Saturday night. It could have been Sunday afternoon and that it went until midnight of Sunday.


#4

A question for you Herry: have you been circumcised? It is a part of God’s law, which is unchanging.


#5

Romans 14 ?

Merry Christmas

:slight_smile:


#6

[quote=Aaron I.]A question for you Herry: have you been circumcised? It is a part of God’s law, which is unchanging.
[/quote]

How do you even know that I am boy? It is a mistake to include the circumscision law with the Sabbath. Circumscision profits nothing as says Paul. The Ten Commandments are God’s moral law, and circumscision is NOT part of it, and not binding. The Jerusalem council which people often reference (Atcs 15:24) says nothing about the Sabbath. The Ten Commandments God “wrote in two tables of stone, and He added no more” (Deut. 5:22)

Your own Magisterum admits that the Sabbath commandment is binding as part of God’s moral law (only they have changed the day to apply to Sunday). “If anyone saith, that the Ten Commadnmetns in no wise appertain to Christians, or that is, that they are free, or do not need to be kept…let him be anathema from Christ” --Council of Trent, session 6, canon XIX


#7

[quote=johnshelby]Romans 14 ?

Merry Christmas

:slight_smile:
[/quote]

Romans ch. 14 is about carnal ordinances, eating, drinking, etc. The days of which it speaks are the various extra, ceremonial days such as the passover, and the day of atonement. Paul was simply adressing the various washings, and carnal ordiances, imposed on them until the time of reformation (see hebrews 9:10). Jesus never abolished the Sabbath, but as you may read reformed it making it a day of joy and blessing rather than strict legalism. Jesus came to magnify teh law and make it honorable, not to destory it (Isaiah 42:21). Romans 14 is similar to Colossians 2:16, paul tells us not to judge eachother about the festival days “which were a shadow of things to come”. The weekly rest of the 7th day was given as a mermorial of God’s action, therefore it could never foreshadow atonement for sin like the passover, day of atonement, etc. All those feast days were insituted to foreshadow atonement. The Sabbath existed before sin, so therefore stands untouched by the laws of sin, and death, etc. The other days were given only because sin had entered the world.

It would be more fitting to use Romans 14 to question your own Church on why it is imposing Sunday (a festival of tradition) on you.

Merry Christians to you to John Shelby, May God heap Christmas blessings on you all,

-Herry


#8

Catholics have Mass and worship God every day of the week, including Saturdays.

Just curious … what is the Seventh Day Adventists position on Roe vs. Wade? I never hear them speak out against the evils of abortion.


#9

[quote=shannin]Catholics have Mass and worship God every day of the week, including Saturdays.

Just curious … what is the Seventh Day Adventists position on Roe vs. Wade? I never hear them speak out against the evils of abortion.
[/quote]

The Councils of Laodicea, and Chalcedon forbid Catholics to observe the Sabbath. I have even been told that I cannot be saved if I keep the Sabbath. The Council of Laodicea outlawed its observance, Gregory I said that antichrist will keep the Sabbath, and suceeding councils throughout the generations have sysematically forbade Sabbath observance in nearly every nation in Europe. The Jesuits influenced the Ethiopians to forbid Sabbath keeping in their Kingdom. There was even an inquisition set up in India because Sabbath observance was found to be widespread there at one point.

As for abortion, abortion is murder plain and simple. From the moment of conception onward, it does not matter. America is no better than the MeSsEd up heathen nations of old who sacrificed thier children. Now, we do it under a new name. Any Adventist will tell you this.


#10

I have an aunt that is a sabbath school teacher and she talks to me about what she has to talk about and she did one on abortion not all that long ago. And I beleive that their offical position is that it is bad but, it is the individuals dicision and that they should be supportive. She actually got her thing from the church…“Archives” (I guess that is you would call it) and I could get it for you if you want.


#11

[quote=herry]The Councils of

Laodicea,

and Chalcedon forbid Catholics to observe the Sabbath. I have even been told that I cannot be saved if I keep the Sabbath. The Council of Laodicea outlawed its observance, Gregory I said that antichrist will keep the Sabbath, and suceeding councils throughout the generations have sysematically forbade Sabbath observance in nearly every nation in Europe. The Jesuits influenced the Ethiopians to forbid Sabbath keeping in their Kingdom. There was even an inquisition set up in India because Sabbath observance was found to be widespread there at one point.

[/quote]

You state you have been told but by whom have been told? I have been unable to verify your statements.
The Council of Chalcedon – 150 bishops under Pope Leo the Great and the Emperor Marcian – defined the two natures (Divine and human) in Christ against Eutyches, who was excommunicated. Had nothing to do with Sabbath observance

There are extant, in Greek, sixty canons of a Council of Laodicea. That this assembly was actually held, we have the testimony of Theodoret (“In Coloss.”, ii, 18, P.L., LXXXII, 619). There has been much discussion as to the date: some have even thought that the council must have preceded that of Nicaea (325), or at least that of Constantinople (381) It seems safer to consider it as subsequent to the latter. The canons are, undoubtedly, only a resume of an older text, and indeed appear to be derived from two distinct collections. They are of great importance in the history of discipline and liturgy; Protestants have often, but quite without reason, invoke one of them in opposition to the veneration of angels.

newadvent.org/cathen/04423f.htm
newadvent.org/cathen/03555a.htm


#12

[quote=herry]As for abortion, abortion is murder plain and simple. From the moment of conception onward, it does not matter. America is no better than the MeSsEd up heathen nations of old who sacrificed thier children. Now, we do it under a new name. Any Adventist will tell you this.
[/quote]

Herry,
I wish any SDA would tell us this, however, the official position on abortion by the SDA Church is pro-choice. :frowning: Sadly.

Brandon


#13

Herry,

Hope you dont mind if I jump in… When was the Sabbath given man, and who specifically was it given to? If we are going to discuss the Sabbath, by all means lets look at it from the very beginning of the Sabbath. Finally, if you don’t mind, please provide references scriptural or otherwise for anything you use as an answer or quote, that way we can all look them up. I would love to talk to you about this until one or both of us come to a better understanding of each other’s position. :slight_smile:

Brandon


#14

“The Great Controversy” strikes again… :rolleyes:

The Sabbath or the Lord’s Day?

Recently we received an 80-page booklet entitled “What’s Behind The New World Order?” It admits to be a collection of excerpts from the book, Will America Survive?, which was originally published 100 years ago under the title, The Great Controversy. This book was written by E.G. White, foundress of the Seventh Day Adventists. It claims that the Catholic Church is behind the New World Order. The booklet claims that this is true, since the Church is the beast of Revelation (Rev 17). It accuses the Church of many evil things and attempts to prove that the Church is the beast by exposing the “marks of the beast.” Due to limited space only one charge will be considered here.

According to the booklet, one “mark of the beast” is not observing the Sabbath on Saturday. It is alleged that in the fourth century the Church and Emperor Constantine replaced the Sabbath with the pagan “DAY OF THE SUN”, i.e. Sunday. Now it is true that the Old Testament says the “seventh day” but assigning that to Saturday is Hebrew tradition. As Christians, we must consider this in the light of the New Testament and the teachings of Christ. If this is a “mark of the beast”, almost all Christian churches today bear the mark too.

It is ironic that Jesus and His disciples were harassed by the Pharisees over the Sabbath (John 5:18). Jesus spoke out against the Pharisee’s merciless observance of the Sabbath (Matt 12:1-8; Luke 13:10-16). Jesus also defended Himself and His disciples on this issue by saying:

“The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath; so the Son of man is Lord even of the Sabbath.” [Mark 2:27-28; RSV].

and claiming authority over it.

It is true that the Catholic Church through the authority of Christ replaced the Hebrew Sabbath (Saturday) with the Lord’s Day (Sunday); however, this occurred very early - well before the time of Emperor Constantine in the fourth century. For Christians two important events happened on Sunday. First, the Resurrection of Christ occurred on Easter Sunday (John 20:1ff). Secondly, the Holy Spirit descended upon the Church on Pentecost Sunday (Acts 2:1ff). Also after His Resurrection, Jesus appeared to the Apostles twice, each on Sunday (John 20:19 & 26). As a result, Sunday became known as the Lord’s Day for Christians.

The booklet claims that there is no evidence in the Bible for the shift to Sunday. However in the fourth century, St. John Chrysostom cited Acts 20:7 as testimony. According to this verse in the Bible, at least some of the disciples assembled together on Sunday, the first day of the week, to celebrate the Lord’s Supper:

…you can read the rest at
users.binary.net/polycarp/sabbath.html


#15

From Mark 2:27-28

Then he said to them, "The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. That is why the Son of Man is lord even of the sabbath


#16

Herry Herry Herry, I KNOW how much contempt and hatred the 7th Day Adventists have towards the CC. And I …WONDER why I never hear the 7th Day Adventists speak out publicly about the evils of abortion, the value of human dignity and the value of human life.

I WONDER why instead of worshipping God at their Sabboth Services - they sing a few songs but mostly condemn the CC, calling it the Whore of Babylon and calling the Holy Father the AntiChrist.

Herry, the Catholic faith is so awesome. If you really really understood the beauty and truth of it you would certainly come home to it. I will pray for your soul.


#17

[quote=adrift]You state you have been told but by whom have been told? I have been unable to verify your statements.
The Council of Chalcedon – 150 bishops under Pope Leo the Great and the Emperor Marcian – defined the two natures (Divine and human) in Christ against Eutyches, who was excommunicated. Had nothing to do with Sabbath observance

newadvent.org/cathen/04423f.htm
newadvent.org/cathen/03555a.htm
[/quote]

Whoops, my bad, it was the Council of Florence, session 11:

“Therefore it denounces all who after that time observe circumcision, the sabbath and other legal prescriptions as strangers to the faith of Christ and unable to share in eternal salvation, unless they recoil at some time from these errors”


#18

[quote=SDA2RC]Herry,
I wish any SDA would tell us this, however, the official position on abortion by the SDA Church is pro-choice. :frowning: Sadly.

Brandon
[/quote]

If its not in the Bible then its not the official postition of the SDA Church. I have never known a pro-choice SDA. There are crazy people in all Churches, who do not represent it at all. If all we had to discuss were the sins of individuals then we would be spitting into the wind because we are all sinners.


#19

[quote=Montie Claunch]I have an aunt that is a sabbath school teacher and she talks to me about what she has to talk about and she did one on abortion not all that long ago. And I beleive that their offical position is that it is bad but, it is the individuals dicision and that they should be supportive. She actually got her thing from the church…“Archives” (I guess that is you would call it) and I could get it for you if you want.
[/quote]

"And I believe that their official position is that it is bad, but it is the individual’s decision and they should be supportive" …

In other words, is it okay for Seventh Day Adv. to have an abortion BUT not okay to observe Saturday as the Sabboth? Really :mad:


#20

[quote=herry]If its not in the Bible then its not the official postition of the SDA Church. I have never known a pro-choice SDA. There are crazy people in all Churches, who do not represent it at all. If all we had to discuss were the sins of individuals then we would be spitting into the wind because we are all sinners.
[/quote]

Sorry, Kerry, but there was an ex-SDA on “The Journey Home” that left their Church to become a Catholic BECAUSE OF their stand on abortion.


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