the song "AMAZING GRACE"


#1

should we be singing amazing grace in a catholic church. just wondering if anybody out there has ever listened to the words. we sing it at mass all the time. it’s in our hymn book. it refers to not receiving grace till we first believe, which would go against what we believe at baptism. it also refers to once saved always saved… another song that is sung sometimes is “mary did you know”, which also has a line in it that goes against catholic teaching. it states the son that you just had would soon deliver you. jesus did deliver her but it was at her conception. this is stating she hasn’t been delivered yet. any thoughts?


#2

I was told that Amazing Grace was written for the bagpipes.

Anyone know if this is true. It does sound very good on the pipes. We have some of the best pipers in the world here in Nova Scotia.

I see nothing wrong with its lyrics. When I walk out of the confessional it is grace that teaches my eyes to see. I get infused grace all the time, but not when the Red Sox win.


#3

With regards to Mary did you know… I don’t understand why you’d have a problem with the thought that Jesus (by his death & ressurection) would “soon” deliver her? It’s my understanding that Mary, being part of the human race, needed a Savior just like any of us, but that she rec’d the grace PRIOR to his work being done, (at her conception) sort of like on credit. But that debt still needed to be paid?


#4

dal11,

I think you are reading more into the words of Amazing Grace than are there, whatever the author may have believed. We are saved by grace. Maybe he had lost his childhood faith and came back to faith by grace. I know plently of Catholics who have done that. And the song speaks of grace carrying him through many " dangers, toils and snares" which does not exclude those before his conversion. It is all grace. Catholics believe we are saved by grace. We talk about grace all the time, especially in relationship to the sacraments. Grace allows us to do good works.The baptismal grace of faith recived by infants in baptism is based on their parent’s faith and must grow and be confirmed in the child as the child grows.We also believe in the grace of perseverance.

Faith and Baptism - from The Catechism

1253 Baptism is the sacrament of faith. But faith needs the community of believers. It is only within the faith of the Church that each of the faithful can believe. The faith required for Baptism is not a perfect and mature faith, but a beginning that is called to develop. The catechumen or the godparent is asked: “What do you ask of God’s Church?” The response is: “Faith!”

1254 For all the baptized, children or adults, faith must grow after Baptism. For this reason the Church celebrates each year at the Easter Vigil the renewal of baptismal promises. Preparation for Baptism leads only to the threshold of new life. Baptism is the source of that new life in Christ from which the entire Christian life springs forth.

1255 For the grace of Baptism to unfold, the parents’ help is important. So too is the role of the godfather and godmother, who must be firm believers, able and ready to help the newly baptized - child or adult on the road of Christian life. Their task is a truly ecclesial function (officium). The whole ecclesial community bears some responsibility for the development and safeguarding of the grace given at Baptism.

1821 We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will. In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere “to the end” and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God’s eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ. In hope, the Church prays for “all men to be saved.” She longs to be united with Christ, her Bridegroom, in the glory of heaven:

2016 The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance and the recompense of God their Father for the good works accomplished with his grace in communion with Jesus. Keeping the same rule of life, believers share the “blessed hope” of those whom the divine mercy gathers into the “holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”

1128 This is the meaning of the Church’s affirmation49 that the sacraments act ex opere operato (literally: “by the very fact of the action’s being performed”), i.e., by virtue of the saving work of Christ, accomplished once for all. It follows that “the sacrament is not wrought by the righteousness of either the celebrant or the recipient, but by the power of God.” From the moment that a sacrament is celebrated in accordance with the intention of the Church, the power of Christ and his Spirit acts in and through it, independently of the personal holiness of the minister. Nevertheless, the fruits of the sacraments also depend on the disposition of the one who receives them. "

scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc2.htm


#5

The only words that would seem to be a direct contradiction to Catholic teaching is the part “that saved a wretch like me”, which refers to the idea of the total depravity of Man, which the Church rejects. When this song is sung at our parish, the words are changed to “that saved and set me free”.


#6

[quote=dal11]should we be singing amazing grace in a catholic church. just wondering if anybody out there has ever listened to the words. we sing it at mass all the time. it’s in our hymn book. it refers to not receiving grace till we first believe, which would go against what we believe at baptism. it also refers to once saved always saved… another song that is sung sometimes is “mary did you know”, which also has a line in it that goes against catholic teaching. it states the son that you just had would soon deliver you. jesus did deliver her but it was at her conception. this is stating she hasn’t been delivered yet. any thoughts?
[/quote]

why don’t you give us the lyrics so we something to discuss?


#7

With all due respect, there are bigger fish to fry (not just on Fridays) regarding the songs sung in RC churches these days. For starters, a lot of the music is just horrible. That, and it seems like many people just aren’t too interested in singing.

Dr. C- I seem to remember my former RC priest’s objections to the word “wretch” also. I never much cared for it either, but that was ususally due to the proximity of Sunday morning Mass to Saturday evening beer busts.


#8

Amazing Grace

Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found;
Was blind, but now I see.

’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears relieved;
How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed.

Through many dangers, toils and snares,
I have already come;
’Tis grace hath brought me safe thus far,
And grace will lead me home.

The Lord has promised good to me,
His Word my hope secures;
He will my Shield and Portion be,
As long as life endures.

Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
And mortal life shall cease,
I shall possess, within the veil,
A life of joy and peace.

The earth shall soon dissolve like snow,
The sun forbear to shine;
But God, Who called me here below,
Shall be forever mine.

When we’ve been there ten thousand years,
Bright shining as the sun,
We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise
Than when we’d first begun.


#9

The song AMAZING GRACE is heresy and should NEVER be song in a Catholic Church! End of discussion.


#10

as to the song “mary did you know”, i know mary needed a saviour just like everyone else, but this is saying she hasn’t been delivered yet when in fact she was delivered by jesus at HER CONCEPTION.


#11

[quote=Dr. Colossus]The only words that would seem to be a direct contradiction to Catholic teaching is the part “that saved a wretch like me”, which refers to the idea of the total depravity of Man, which the Church rejects.
[/quote]

I think you have to understand a bit about the songwriter’s life. John Newton had abandoned his childhood faith as a young man. For many years he worked on slaving ships, and he led a dissolute life and was a blasphemer. So, in his eyes, he *was *a wretch, and the ability of God to transform his life truly was “amazing grace.”

Just a bit of perspective.


#12

RNRobert,

As far as perspective goes many thing Luther was a martyr. We know him as a heretic. Just because someone changed part of there life does not make them less of a heretic. There two types of people those inside the Church and those outside. Salvation can ONLY be found in the Church. Only God knows who is a member of the Church.


#13

[quote=dal11]as to the song “mary did you know”, i know mary needed a saviour just like everyone else, but this is saying she hasn’t been delivered yet when in fact she was delivered by jesus at HER CONCEPTION.
[/quote]

Bear in mind that the lyrics of “Mary Did You Know” are questions being put to Mary by another person. “Did you know that…”

DaveBj


#14

[quote=BonnieBj]Bear in mind that the lyrics of “Mary Did You Know” are questions being put to Mary by another person. “Did you know that…”

DaveBj
[/quote]

No, I don’t have multiple personality disorder; I just didn’t notice that the forum came up under SU’s screen name. Color me :o embarrassed.

DaveBj


#15

[quote=BonnieBj]Bear in mind that the lyrics of “Mary Did You Know” are questions being put to Mary by another person. “Did you know that…”

DaveBj
[/quote]

I agree with your take on it. I read and hear it as someone looking back over past events, and saying, "At the time this happened, did you know…"
I don’t really have a problem with the lyrics, because I imagine her answer would be, "Of course I knew!"
The questioner may not know, but Mary surely did.
Have a great day!
Judy


#16

I think Post #11 makes a good point. The author of the song wrote lyrics when he almost died during a storm out to sea on a slave ship. Poster #4 makes a good point about the red sox…JK.


#17

[quote=Michael C]I think Post #11 makes a good point. The author of the song wrote lyrics when he almost died during a storm out to sea on a slave ship. Poster #4 makes a good point about the red sox…JK.
[/quote]

Speaking for myself,
I would avoid singing that song in church. That song is filled with doctrinal errors that are contrary to the church’s teaching. Newton may have repented, but it doesn’t support the arguement to sing it in church. Its a good Protestant hymn, but their agenda is sola scripture and sola fide. That’s the agenda the song has behind it. No, this is not our faith! The verse “saved a wretch like me” is like saying I’m a wretch. The Church doesn’t teach that.

Padre Pio “Don’t worry, work and pray.”


#18

Oh lighten up, some of you are reading too much into those lyrics. Yes those who wrote the song probably believed in a different doctrine of salvation than the Church, but the church has many fine hymns written by non-Catholic Christians.

It is ultramontane posing to say that because these lyrics hint at or lean towards that view of the role of Grace that its beautiful emotional impact is negated.

I think the Church made the right call on this one and it is a good ecumenical one too. It shows Protestants that we respect them, it certainly does not cause indifferentism if one is properly catechized.

If anyone learns the doctrines of Grace by inferring what a hymn might possibly mean (subjectively) then they need catechesis fast.

salud,

G


#19

George2,

I will NOT lighting up! Many people died to bring us the one TRUE faith. We should NEVER cheapen it by supporting Heresy. Protestants are Heretics and Amazing Grace is a Protestant song. Did Saint Thomas More “lighting” to King Henry VII?

If you want to sing something sing Gregorian Chant not heresy!

Saint Michael Defend Us In Battle!


#20

The verse “saved a wretch like me” is like saying I’m a wretch. The Church doesn’t teach that.[/font]

Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me free from the body of this death? RSVCE

Romans 7:24"What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body doomed to death?" The Jerusalem Bible

Wretched does not necessarily mean “totally depraved” although the author did have some Calvinist leanings. He was ordained in the Anglican Church, which at the time included the Methodist movement founded by Wesley. Here is a link to his story.

anointedlinks.com/amazing_grace.html


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