The State of the Dead

This is a responds to the following thread as it was presented in another thread:

There are quit a few items here so I will be breaking it down in fragments and answer each point accordingly.

“If the dead know nothing then way did Jesus preach to the dead?”

Is this doctrine in the Bible or is it a “tradition” passed down from some obscure past?
If it is a doctrine of the Bible please post the scriptures supporting it. If it is a “tradition” passed down, was it passed down by the Apostles or some other source? If it is from the Apostles it, again, should be stated somewhere in the scriptures as Paul and the other apostles reiterated all their teaches to the churches in their letters to them.

II Thessalonians 2:15 “Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word or our epistle”

II Thessalonians 3:4-6 “And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. Now we commend you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.”

II Thessalonians 3:14-15 “And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet count him not as an enemy but admonish him as a brother.”

The traditions that are to be followed are those that the Apostles, through the guidance of the Holy Ghost, established when the Church was first formed. Their traditions were the teachings of Christ, as Christ spoke them, whether through letters or in person to the body. These traditional teachings are found in the scriptures and we are to compare all that we are told concerning the truth of God with the scriptures, wisely culling out that which is truth and that which is false, showing ourselves approved.

II Timothy 2:11-19 “It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. Of these things put them in rememberance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus. Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity."

Many take the word of others when it comes to the word of God at face value and don’t study for themselves, or they harvest out of the scriptures what they will to support their doctrines, in many cases using one verse, often misquoted, to support their teachings. I, therefore, ask that you search out the scriptures and compare that with what you believe, is what you believe bolstered by the Word of God or does it fall apart like a house of cards? If I error, and it can be shown scripturally, please show me for I do not wish to error nor lead others to error.

For further questions on the issue of the how Christ descended into hell to preach to the dead when he was dead you will need to direct that to Solomon when we get to heaven, for it was he who stated that the dead no not know anything.

Eccl. 9:5-6 “For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.” and Eccl. 9:10 Whatsoever they hand findeth to do, do it with they might; for there is not work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in the grave, whither thou goest.”

You are assuming that the elders are dead. Are they? Let’s look at whether they are dead or alive and who these elders are.

Matt 28: 50-54 “Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were open; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.”

Are the resurrected dead or are they once again living? If the dead remain dead after being resurrected then Christ is still dead and we are still lost. The elders are not dead they are alive. They have physical, glorified bodies, as Christ has a physical, glorified body.

Luke 24:36-43* “And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled: and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them.”*

Spirits, as we perceive them, don’t have substantial form, nor do they eat. The resurrected are brought back to life, in the last days the dead in Christ will raise and be given glorified bodies. There are not and will never be dead things in heaven.

Those resurrected on the day that Christ died are those elders offering incense. There is no mention in the Bible of who these elders were, but an assumption can be made that they are probably some of the prophets and judges that God ordained in the Old Testament.

You answer this yourself when you state that it is a parable. Parables are not to be taken literally. They are illustrations meant to teach. Jesus couched his teachings in parables to hinder the truth from those who where so adamantly against him.

Matt. 13:10-17 “And the disciples came, and said unto him, why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive; For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed ; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.”

Now I know what you’re going to say. “But Jesus really raised Lazarus from the dead.” Yep, he did. No argument there. But I’ve got a question. If Lazarus was really in heaven, enjoying all the comforts that the Kingdom affords, don’t you think it kind of cruel for Christ to bring him back to this world? Besides that Abraham refused the rich man’s request to send Lazarus back. Hmmm, doesn’t sound like the same Lazarus to me.

So let’s look at the parable.

Luke 16:19-31 “There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and liked his sores.”

The rich man represents those who have God’s word and horde it to themselves. Lazarus represents those who desire even the littlest bit of the truth of God but are denied.

“And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;”

Now if we take this literally it must mean that Abraham has a very big bosom because it suggests all who die go to Abraham’s bosom, this is symbolism of Jewish tradition representing going to Heaven.

“And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lasarus in his bosom.”

The word for “hell” here is actually “Hades” a place in pagan worship the Jews would not have accepted as a literal place. ”

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.” “But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence”

First, does it make sense that people who are supposed to be in heaven will be able to converse with people who are in hell? Second, can a drop of water cool a burning tongue? These are both just illustrations in telling the parable, not to be taken literally.

Then he said I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

It doesn’t sound to me like Abraham is going to let Lazarus out of his bosom. Another question. This parable makes it sound like Abraham is in charge of heaven. Is he?

Ok, here comes the key point

“And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.”

One did rise from the dead and many are ignoring it, I think you can all agree to this statement.

You’ve got to be kidding!!! I hope I’m not the only one who sees the error in this statement. Please someone else correct runandsew on this one because this is way too obvious an error. (This was all rhetorical, of course I will respond.)

First let’s take on the error concerning Elijah. The text is way to long to quote here but if you would look it up yourself and read it you will find that Elijah never died. He was taken to heaven by a band of angels that appeared as a chariot of fire and horses of fire. So your statement that Elijah had been dead for over 1,000 years when he talked with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration is, pardon the pun, dead wrong. Read II Kings Chapters One and Two.

Second, as for Moses, Jews tradition, or is Catholic tradition the only tradition that counts, tells us that Satan and Jesus fought over the body of Moses and Jesus was, once again, victorious, thereby resurrecting Moses and giving him a new glorified body. We read a similar depiction in the book of Jude, read verse 9. So, as with Elijah, Moses is not dead and was not dead when he too spoke with Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration.

Let me ask you a question. What is rest? One of the definitions for REST, given by the Mirriam-Webster Colligate Dictionary, Tenth Edition, is that of SLEEP. Look up Sleep and you will find that one of its definitions is that of DEATH. Therefore we can then assume, intelligently, that Rest, Sleep and Death can be the same thing and saying this we can also state, even though there is no specific scripture stating that Jesus rested, we do know that he died and being such, according to the definitions, he RESTED.

Also read again the incidents concerning the resurrections of Lazarus, John 11:1-44; The Ruler’s Daughter Matt. 9:18-26, in both instances Jesus himself states that neither are dead, but that they sleep. There is often a phrase for those who sleep very soundly, it’s called “The sleep of the dead.” Sleep is but a rest for the Saints until the Day of the Lord at which time we will be awakened to meet the Lord in the air. Praise God, may the day be soon.

First of all, Heaven is a spiritual place, not a physical place, they really don’t have bowls and candles and incense.

And second of all we will not receive our resurrected bodies until the second coming at the end of time.

In Daniel 12:13 an angel looks ahead to the resurrection as occurring at the end of the age: "But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age."
In John 6:40 Christ declares that the resurrection will happen on the last day: "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
Paul specifies this meaning even further, stating in 1 Corinthians 15:23 that we will be raised at the return of Christ: "Each [will be raised] in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming."
In 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 he also looks ahead to the resurrection as something that will occur not until Christ comes back: “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord.”

And as to the question of the dead not being aware or as you put it, “the dead remaining dead”, well Paul writes in Philippians 1:23–24, “I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.” He is saying he would prefer to be martyred and be with Christ, but he realizes it is necessary for him to remain alive in order to spread the gospel by his preaching. If the soul “sleeps” (ceases to exists, really) at death, how could it be “better by far” to be martyred rather than continue to have fruitful labor here on Earth?

“Those resurrected on the day that Christ died are those elders offering incense.”

Please show me where scripture states this, or anywhere in the writings of the early Christian church that state this.

Isn’t it the Adventists who are messed up on this belief?

First of all, Jesus wouldn’t teach something that wasn’t true even if it was in a parable.

Second, Lazarus was not in heaven.
The Gates of heaven were not opened until the resurrection of Jesus. This was the place of the dead not the Hell of the damned. And it looks like from this parable, that the just and the unjust were separated in this place of the dead.

So it wouldn’t have been a bummer for Lazarus to be brought back to life because he was returning from the place of the dead, not heaven.

Jesus and the writers of the bible did not refer to the Mirriam-Webster Colligate Dictionary, Tenth Edition, when they were looking for the meanings of their words.

You need take into account the meaning that the author intended to convey at the time he wrote it and to the audience he was writing to.
When they are saying that the dead were ‘asleep’ or at ‘rest’ they were referring to the fact that their eyes were closed and appeared to be sleeping - that is even though physically they look dead, spiritually they are still alive
They are not spiritually dead, they just appear to be resting or asleep until the day of the resurrections where they will be reunited with these dead bodies.

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.

1 Peter 4:6
For this is why the gospel was preached even to the dead, that though judged in the flesh like men, they might live in the spirit like God.

I stand corrected on Elijah not dying, but as for the tradition of Moses, that is a small ‘t’ tradition, it is not an infallible teaching of the church.
And why are you now clinging to tradition, I thought you were a “bible only” kind of Christian.

Thanks for opening a thread on this, Sabbath Keeper. I was reading about it on the other thread, and thought it was worthy of it’s own.


I like this approach!

If the dead know nothing then way did Jesus preach to the dead?”

their teaches to the churches in their letters to them.

It is an error to assume that all that the Apostles taught is in the Scripture.

There are two types of “tradition”. Sacred Tradition (the word of God) is what was used to write the New Testament. The other “tradition” (with a small “t”) refers to the customs of men. We can see that Paul distinguished these from one another in his writings.

II Thessalonians 3:4-6 “And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. Now we commend you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.”

II Thessalonians 3:14-15 “And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet count him not as an enemy but admonish him as a brother.”

The traditions that are to be followed are those that the Apostles, through the guidance of the Holy Ghost, established when the Church was first formed.

It is very Catholic of you to say this :thumbsup: !

However, that is not the limit is Sacred Tradition. It did not cease to exist when the NT was written. In fact, Sacred Tradition was what determined what belonged in the NT, three centuries after the books were written.

Yes! This is Catholic Teaching.

Yes, the Scriptures do bear witness to the Teachings, but no where do they claim to contain all of them. This is evidenced by what the Scriptures say of themselves, as by the fact that there is no table of contents included within them. The Catholic Church sifted through the 400+ books at the time, all claiming to be “inspired” and chose which 27 would go into the NT. They used, among other things, the Sacred Tradition to make this decision.

I agree.

Since you evidently have embraced the error of Sola Scriptura, I will try to limit myself as you have. :wink:

No, I think not.

In any case, God has revealed Himself progressively to mankind, and it was clear during the Maccabean period that they realized that the “dead” are not asleep. What is more important, though is that Jesus taught that they are alive, and aware. Don’t you think it behooves Christians to accept what Christ taught?

How do you know this was written by Solomon?

Anyway, this is a common point of view of the day that represented a depressed world view. I will take Jesus’ over that any day of the week!

**You write too much without thinking through the ramifications of what you are attempting to support.

When you look at John 6:35, 48, 51, 53-56, it clearly tells us that Christ bestows eternal life on all who eat his flesh and drink his blood. Therefore the redeemed in heaven are alive in Christ, not asleep or dead, as unbelievers would claim no matter what their religious affiliation.

If they are not ‘alive’ in Heaven, they are not ‘dead’ someplace else (i.e., Hell). The soul of an individual is very much conscious. Either Christ is a liar or He is instructing us on the conditions we need to follow Him for eternal life.

You do not have the Eucharist. I would start questioning that.**

No - but you do. Catholics believe in eternal life. We believe that, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Even those who do not have their resurrected bodies are “alive with the Lord”.

" When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; 10 they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been."Rev 6:9-11

Or are you suggesting that all these who are represented as being alive in heaven already have their glorified bodies?

Well, I agree. You are the one who is saying they are still dead, or in some kind of “soul sleep”. :shrug:

This is Apostolic Teaching, and I am glad that you have at least come into posession of this much of it, limited as you are by Sola Scriptura. :thumbsup:

However, I don’t think you can substantiate that all the souls in heaven already have their resurrected bodies. Can you show that Samuel had a resurrected body when he appeared to Paul? I think not.

Elsewhere, Scripture explains that the 24 are the 12 tribes of Israel, and the 12 Apostles. However, since the 12 Apostles had not already all died (at least one of them was witnessing the vision) then how can you substantiate that. I am glad you used the word “they are probably”. At least you are aware that you are guessing.

So, do you think He was misreprenting reality with His parable?

No one said it was! The Apostles did not teach that Lazarus was in heaven. The Apostles taught that the gates of Heaven were closed due to the sin of Adam and Eve. It was not until the resurrection that they were opened.

This is a creative imposition upon the text.

No, you are apparently unfamiliar with the Jewish understanding of Abraham’s bosom. On the contrary, Abraham’s bosom was equivalent to the “paradise” that Jesus promised to the thief when he repented on the cross. This is not “heaven” because no one could enter heaven until after Christ ascended there 40 days after his resurrection.

The place of the dead is not just “pagan”. I agree, however, it is outside of time and space. It is a state, more than a place.

God is beyond time and space, and He can permit anyone who is anywhere to converse with whoever He likes. That is how Saul had a conversation with Samuel. It was the will of God. However, I have made the point already that heaven could not be entered at that time.

Abraham can be in charge of whatever Christ allows, would you not agree?

Oh, by all means, please do respond! I want to know why you think that Moses and Elijah are talking with Jesus while they are in “soul sleep”. :wink:

I agree. So, if heaven is shut, where was he?

How come he can have a conversation, just like Samuel did, but scripture does not record that Samuel had a body?

Well, I am glad that we can agree on something. The only Traditions that count are those that come from God, where matters of faith and morals are concerned.

I have not qualms with this. When I die the next conscious thing I will know is the coming of the Lord and being resurrected into his presence, thus “being absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.”

Are you suggesting that all the souls of all the saints through out the ages that have been slain in the name of Christ can fit under the alter of the Lord in heaven? Besides, didn’t you say that the things in heaven were not real but only symbolism, or was that some one else? And no, we don’t get our glorified bodies until Christ returns, however, there are those who have obtained their glorified bodies as scripture shows, Elijah, Moses, Enoch, and those who were resurrected at Christ’s crucifixion.

You obviously misunderstand what is meant by being dead or sleeping. When God created man he breathed into him life. When man dies that breath returns to God as breath. When the scriptures, old testament, preserved by the Jews, speaks of souls they are equated with living beings, whether they be human or animal. The formula is as follows: Dirt + the Breath of God = A soul. A soul - the Breath of God = Dirt. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Check it out for yourself. Do some research.

As distainful as you are toward the scripture alone position you think I may be taking, let me assure you. It has been shown, and accepted, by the Roman Catholic Church the scripture alone is sufficient to obtain salvation as can be found in church documents.

Read the scripture concerning Samuel and Saul( Not Paul) again. I think you will find that the witch saw an aperation coming from the bowels of the earth, not heaven, and after discribing it to Saul, Saul assumed that it was Samuel. There is no definate identification of the aperation as to being Samuel. Remember that Satan and his demons can and do impersonate the dead often. If Samuel were in heaven he diffenately would not have come from the bowels of the earth.

This is a prophecy, something that has not yet happened. Future tense. Excuse me if you misunderstood what I was saying or if I misapplied. I, as you, am only human and am, as you, prone to make mistakes. Forgive?

I have yet to find this teaching in scripture or any of the historical church documents that I have been able to procure. Could you direct me to where it says the gates to heaven were closed seeing as Enoch, Moses and Elijah were all admitted to heaven in there own time?

Although I still do not agree with you here, I will agree that God’s realm is out of time and space. That is why we cannot comprehend the statement, “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.” In our time the dead are not yet with the Lord, but in their time they are. Hard to understand unless you thoroughly set your mind to the total abstractness of the concept.

See previous posts

Moot point.

Addressed in a previous post

As long as they are not distorted by man through greed or averous.

Oh, and please forgive my tardiness on responding. I have, at the behest of many in this forum, been researching and studying the history of the church.

Prudentius, an early Christian poet, wrote in the Cathemerinon (a book of hymns for various times and occasions) a hymn for the funeral procession and burial of the dead. It includes a very lucid explanation of the fates of soul and body – that they are parted by death, but reunite at the Resurrection of the Body.

Christians back then were fighting two separate pagan beliefs. The Gnostic and Manichaean folks thought the soul was a prisoner that needed to escape. They despised the body, and thought that you might as well just drop corpses in a ditch and forget about them. (And of course ordinary Roman pagans believed it was okay to kill and dispose of unwanted or imperfect infants just like trash, so archaeologists have found sewers and trash piles that are full of little baby skeletons.) Meanwhile, those who didn’t believe in any soul or afterlife were equally hostile to the idea that anything of the human person went to God. So this hymn defends both the body’s dignified “sleep” and the soul’s continued life with God (the “aether” and “hold the scepter” part).

Anyway, in translation, here is a good chunk of the hymn, which goes on and on about burying the dead and why it’s a good thing. (It was a long walk out of town to where the cemeteries and catacombs were.):

"Fountain of Life, supernal Fire, Who didst unite in wondrous wise
The soul that lives, the clay that dies, And mad’st them Man: eternal Sire,

Both elements Thy will obey, Thine is the bond that joins the twain,
And, while united they remain, Spirit and body own Thy sway.

Yet they must one day disunite, Sunder in death this mortal frame;
Dust to the dust from whence it came, The spirit to its heavenward flight.

For all created things must wane, And age must break the bond at last;
The diverse web that Life held fast Death’s fingers shall unweave again.

Yet, gracious God, Thou dost devise The death of Death for all Thine own;
The path of safety Thou hast shown Whereby the doomèd limbs may rise:

So that, while fragile bonds of earth Man’s noblest essence still enfold,
That part may yet the sceptre hold Which from pure aether hath its birth.

The lifeless body we restore To earth, must slumber free from pain
A little while, that it may gain The spirit’s fellowship once more.

The years will pass with rapid pace Till through these limbs the life shall flow,
And the long-parted spirit go To seek her olden dwelling-place.

Then shall the body, that hath lain And turned to dust in slow decay,
On airy wings be borne away And join its ancient soul again.

Why hew the rocky tomb so deep, Why raise the monument so fair,
Save that the form we cherish there Is no dead thing, but laid to sleep?

This is the faithful ministry Of Christian men, who hold it true
That all shall one day live anew Who now in icy slumber lie.

Take now, O earth, the load we bear, And cherish in thy gentle breast
This mortal frame we lay to rest, The poor remains that were so fair.

For they were once the soul’s abode, That by God’s breath created came;
And in them, like a living flame, Christ’s precious gift of wisdom glowed.

For though consumed by mould and rust Man’s body slowly fades away,
And years of lingering decay Leave but a handful of dry dust;

Though wandering winds, that idly fly, Should his disparted ashes bear
Through all the wide expanse of air, Man may not perish utterly.

Yet till Thou dost build up again This mortal structure by Thy hand,
In what far world wilt Thou command The soul to rest, now free from stain?

In Abraham’s bosom it shall dwell 'Mid verdant bowers, as Lazarus lies
Whom Dives sees with longing eyes From out the far-off fires of hell.

We trust the words our Saviour said When, victor o’er grim Death, he cried
To him who suffered at His side, “In Mine own footsteps shalt thou tread.”

See, open to the faithful soul, The shining paths of Paradise;
Now may they to that garden rise Which from mankind the Serpent stole.

Guide him, we pray, to that blest bourn, Who served Thee truly here below;
May he the bliss of Eden know, Who strayed in banishment forlorn.

But we will honour our dear dead With violets and garlands strown,
And o’er the cold and graven stone Shall fragrant odours still be shed.

very poetic Mintaka, however confusing. It claims that the dead sleep, yet it also claims that the dead is with God. I know the body is buried and decaying, but the “spirit” is with God. Did you know that the same word for “spirit” is the one also for “breath”. The breath “spirit” returns to God in its’ original form, just as the body returns to the earth in its’ original form. There is no consciousness to the breath as there is no consciousness to the body. The soul only becomes reanimated once the two are rejoined at the second coming of Christ, pray that it be soon.

This is pure unadulterated and unsubstantiated speculation. Please give scriptural support for your private interpretation.
By the way, since you are prone to quote (and misinterpret) a lot of Old Testament scriptures why is it that you seem to be completely indifferent or ignorant to the fact that the penalty under OT teaching for private interpretation was death? You seem to be “dead asleep” at the wheel captain…

Exod 18:20, Deut. 17:11, 17:12, 33:10, 19:16-17; 2 Chron 15:3, 19:8-10, Mal. 2:6-8, Ezra 7:6, 10, 25-26 Nehemiah 8:1-8, 2 Chron 17:8-9. The last two references demonstrate that the principals do not change from OT to NT.


It is an ancient Jewish tradition, but I am surprised that you do not find it in your NT.

" But when the archangel Michael contended with the devil and disputed about the body of Moses, he did not dare to bring a condemnation of slander against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” Jude 9

Perhaps next time you can refresh your memory so that you can get the details of the story straight?

There’s a lot here to look up and read. I only have a limited amount of time as I do not have regular access to the internet. So forgive me if I do not respond right away. Thank you for the readings. I will endeavor to look these up and respond as the opportunity prevails itself.

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