The sufficiency of Christ

The sufficiency of Christ

I believe the essential difference between Protestants and Catholics is the work of Christ for sinners. It really has to do with the sufficiency of Christ. A Catholic brother posted on another thread that Christ is all sufficient. However, I believe the Protestant position is really about the sufficiency of Christ, and the Catholic view of the work of Christ is not the same. The Catholic position has a lower view of the work of Christ than Protestants in the disucssion of sufficiency.

You’ve made these statements but not said why you believe the above. Why do you believe that the Catholic position is lower in terms of Christ’s sufficiency? How are the Protestants and Catholics views different?

Thanks!

Let’s try this first. We can continue on this topic in more detail tomorrow, okay?

Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. - rom 10

The Righteous Shall Live by Faith

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.” - Rom 1

The Righteousness of God Through Faith

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Abraham Justified by Faith

What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

The Promise Realized Through Faith

For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.- Rom 3 and 4

I still feel like you’re not saying what you want to say. Yes, you have the book of romans here which any faithful Catholic will amen to that but not necessarily your commentary which will follow. Furthermore, there’s nothing wrong with wanting the other person to be saved.

I hope tomorrow you will answer my initial questions and how it relates to the above.

Oh 2nd Adam there you go again, a man who says he doesn’t like making distinctions making… distinctions.

It is tought to make a comment on this thread because it is not a question. It is a statement. I will wait for your answers to dance before I dive in.

God bless you

hi, i believe 2nd is espousing the calvinistic doctrine of limited attonement. which is the grace of God is sufficient for all, but not efficient for all. :slight_smile:

I haven’t heard of that. What does that doctrine entail?

it is the doctrine that Christ died only for the elect. ties into predestination somewhat. that God already chose those who would believe throughout human history. and that the death of his Son made His grace efficient for these. so even though Christ death was sufficient for the whole of humanity, it only extends to those that are predestinated. i however in light of the teachings of the Church, and many verses in the Bible, do not espouse this belief. how then could it be Gods will that all men come to salvation? i just cannot agree with this doctrine and it was drilled into me growing up. God bless you and yours. :slight_smile:

[quote="2nd Adam]I believe the essential difference between Protestants and Catholics is the work of Christ for sinners. It really has to do with the sufficiency of Christ. A Catholic brother posted on another thread that Christ is all sufficient. However, I believe the Protestant position is really about the sufficiency of Christ, and the Catholic view of the work of Christ is not the same. The Catholic position has a lower view of the work of Christ than Protestants in the disucssion of sufficiency.
[/quote]

2nd Adam, it is quite a statement you made there. What Catholic view is not the same as Protestants about the sufficiency of Christ? How is Catholic position has a lower view of the work of Christ than Protestants? Please tell us what it is or please answer the post below:

In an oversimplified way, I think you may have touched on something. There is, on the surface a difference in how Jesus is viewed by the different faiths. That difference is blown up when we don’t take the time to really learn what one another is saying.

(Col 1:24): “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,”

You know, catholics don’t believe there is anything imperfect, or incomplete about Christ’s death on the Cross. We believe, however that God requires us to respond with our free will.

See you’re thinking about salvation all wrong Adam, you’re thinking that Catholics believe that we have to do something to complete what Christ did. This is wrong, there is nothing anyone needs or could do to complete Christ’s sacrafice. We are saved by Grace alone, not faith or works. Grace, is a free gift of God. Like any gift though, we must accept or reject the gift. Rejecting the gift doesn’t mean it was an incomplete, or insufficent gift in any way shape or form. All that it means is you didn’t want it, and God will in fact repsect that choice.

Yeah, those silly Catholics. They believe that Faith without Works is dead. As if that nonsense is in the Bible!

BTW, it’s hard some times to figure out whether or not Proestant bibles have the Epistle of James still or not. Ch 2 copied from

drbo.org/chapter/66002.htm

1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ of glory with respect of persons. 2 For if there shall come into your assembly a man having a golden ring, in fine apparel, and there shall come in also a poor man in mean attire, 3 And you have respect to him that is clothed with the fine apparel, and shall say to him: Sit thou here well; but say to the poor man: Stand thou there, or sit under my footstool: 4 Do you not judge within yourselves, and are become judges of unjust thoughts? 5 Hearken, my dearest brethren: hath not God chosen the poor in this world, rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which God hath promised to them that love him?

6 But you have dishonoured the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you by might? and do not they draw you before the judgment seats? 7 Do not they blaspheme the good name that is invoked upon you? 8 If then you fulfill the royal law, according to the scriptures, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself; you do well. 9 But if you have respect to persons, you commit sin, being reproved by the law as transgressors. 10 And whosoever shall keep the whole law, but offend in one point, is become guilty of all.

11 For he that said, Thou shalt not commit adultery, said also, Thou shalt not kill. Now if thou do not commit adultery, but shalt kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as being to be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment without mercy to him that hath not done mercy. And mercy exalteth itself above judgment. 14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him? 15 And if a brother or sister be naked, and want daily food:

16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit? 17** So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.** 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. 19 Thou believest that there is one God.** Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble**. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? 25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way?

26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.

hi crazzeto, already addressed this with 2nd on another thread. he will bypass it. also guanaphore has completly dissected his calvinistic views, and effectively refuted him at every term. guanaphore knows the greek text very well. dont think weve covered this doctrine in depth tho. in a round about way, 2nd is attempting to discuss the calvinistic doctrines of tulip. total deparvity, unconditional election, limited attonement, irresistable grace, and perseverance of the saints. all which can be refuted easily by scripture and early Church teaching. peace be to you.:gopray2:

Good try, but no this is not about limited atonement in TULIP. What does the sufficiency of Jesus Christ have to do with? Christ Jesus came into the world to do what?

The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. - Apostle Paul

http://www.nloma.org/Portals/0/sunset_cross.jpg

What was accomplished at the cross?

Do you guys agree that God sent His only Son into this sin cursed word to rescue sinners from their condemned condition?

Ahem, I believe I had some questions for you at the beginning of page 1. Mind answering those, Adam?

LOL… I really enjoy my Catholic siblings in Christ. This has to be one of the best Christian Forum sites on the Internet. You guys are so gracious to your Protestant siblings. I apologize for my Protestants siblings when they are offensive on the Protestant Forum sites. And yes, Protestants love the book of James too. After-all James was the leader at the Council of Jerusalem. The account is in the book of Acts.

good morning 2nd, the sun is just coming up here in hawaii.:slight_smile: limited atonement is about the sufficiency of Christ death. trying to show it from your angle. you are promoting a calvinistic doctrine so i thought i would help to show some others where you may be coming from. now if you could, plz answere dancelittlewoks questions. and i thank you my brother in advance. God bless you and yours.:thumbsup:

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