"The Supper of the Lord" - Consubstantiation?

I remember reading somewhere that the Catholic hymn "The Supper of the Lord" by Laurence Rosania promotes Consubstantiation. I'm not sure if this is true or so. I am going to provide the lyrics below, and if anyone could provide an explanation on this, it would be greatly appreciated.

Refrain:

Precious body, precious blood, here in bread and wine;
here the Lord prepares the feast divine.
Bread of love is broken now, cup of life is poured:
come, share the supper of the Lord.

Verses:

  1. This is the bread of God coming down from heav'n,
    giving life to us, to all the world.

  2. "I am the living spring of eternal life;
    you that drink from me shall not thirst again."

  3. "I am the bread of heav'n giving life to you;
    you that eat this bread shall never die."

  4. "All those who feed on me have their life in me,
    as I have my life in the living God."

  5. All praise to you, O Christ, present in this feast,
    in this bread we share in one life, one Lord.

Well, if someone wanted to be super-anal, they might point to “Precious body, precious blood, here in bread and wine”, the first line. In response, I’d say that “Precious body, precious blood that are the substances, here in the accidents of bread and wine” sounds awkward and doesn’t fit the musical rhythm that is re-used with the second half of the refrain.

Otherwise, verses 1-4 are likely paraphrases from John 6, and verse 5 and the second half of the refrain are pretty generic.

[quote="curlycool89, post:2, topic:244274"]
Well, if someone wanted to be super-anal, they might point to "Precious body, precious blood, here in bread and wine", the first line. In response, I'd say that "Precious body, precious blood that are the substances, here in the accidents of bread and wine" sounds awkward and doesn't fit the musical rhythm that is re-used with the second half of the refrain.

[/quote]

For it to have been Catholic, she would have only had to have said "Precious body, precious blood, here as Bread and Wine." No need to use "substance" and "accidents."

The reason that Catholics get concerned is that there really is a world of difference between saying that Christ is in *the Bread and Wine, and Christ **is* the Bread and Wine. And given how many Catholics take the heretical view, a lot of Catholics (wisely, in my view) are against songs which promote a heretical view, even if they do so unintentionally.

Put more simply, without questioning the songwriter's motives, it seems that a poorly-catechized Catholic (or a non-Catholic) singing this song would conclude that the Church believes in consubstantiation. That's a serious problem.

[quote="Belloc_Fan, post:3, topic:244274"]
For it to have been Catholic, she would have only had to have said "Precious body, precious blood, here as Bread and Wine." No need to use "substance" and "accidents."

[/quote]

No, we do not believe that in the Eucharist Christ is "present as bread and wine." He is present as himself, as his body, blood, soul and divinity. It is merely in the form of bread and wine.

The reason that Catholics get concerned is that there really is a world of difference between saying that Christ is in *the Bread and Wine, and Christ **is* the Bread and Wine. And given how many Catholics take the heretical view, a lot of Catholics (wisely, in my view) are against songs which promote a heretical view, even if they do so unintentionally.

But these are both wrong; we do not say that Christ "is" bread and wine, nor that he "is in" bread and wine. After the consecration, there is no bread or wine on the altar whatsoever -- only the body, blood, &c. of Christ, under the form of bread and wine.
"Dogma datur Christiánis,
Quod in carnem transit panis,
Et vinum in sánguinem."

So, to sum this all up, a Catholic music director should avoid putting this on the music line-up?

I am a Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion. The words, are you a bread or a winer when someone is asking weather I am going to help distribute the Body of Christ or the Blood of Christ at Holy Communion really bothers me. As for the songs and the use of the words bread and wine are unfortinuate. Our Catholic songs were mostly in Latin and a large number or majority of the songs we use are borrowed from the Protestants. A Catholic Music Director must be aware of that and choose songs that promote our Catholic Faith. I'm affraid there are too many Catholics that don't really believe in the real presants of Jesus in the Eucharist. We need to choose songs that doesn't cantinue to cloud the truth.

[quote="inmaddfox, post:6, topic:244274"]
I am a Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion. The words, are you a bread or a winer when someone is asking weather I am going to help distribute the Body of Christ or the Blood of Christ at Holy Communion really bothers me. As for the songs and the use of the words bread and wine are unfortinuate. Our Catholic songs were mostly in Latin and a large number or majority of the songs we use are borrowed from the Protestants. A Catholic Music Director must be aware of that and choose songs that promote our Catholic Faith. I'm affraid there are too many Catholics that don't really believe in the real presants of Jesus in the Eucharist. We need to choose songs that doesn't cantinue to cloud the truth.

[/quote]

I am an EMHC too, but I have never ever heard that expression - ' a bread or a winer'. i wonder if it is peculiar to your parish.

For your second point, Paul himself refers to the bread and wine, and one of the Acclamations is 'When we eat this bread and drink this cup'.

Many of the hymns that people object to are, in face, straight uses of Bible texts.

[quote="Belloc_Fan, post:3, topic:244274"]
For it to have been Catholic, she would have only had to have said "Precious body, precious blood, here as Bread and Wine." No need to use "substance" and "accidents."

The reason that Catholics get concerned is that there really is a world of difference between saying that Christ is in *the Bread and Wine, and Christ **is* the Bread and Wine. And given how many Catholics take the heretical view, a lot of Catholics (wisely, in my view) are against songs which promote a heretical view, even if they do so unintentionally.

Put more simply, without questioning the songwriter's motives, it seems that a poorly-catechized Catholic (or a non-Catholic) singing this song would conclude that the Church believes in consubstantiation. That's a serious problem.

[/quote]

I highly doubt that most Catholics would even THINK about the difference, to tell the truth, and have never even heard of "consubstantiation", and don't know what it means. And many probably haven't heard of "transubstantiation" (or they learned it when they were young and forgot the term). They don't take the words to the song that seriously, and they probably don't even sing it, as people do not usually sing heartily during Communion time.

I think the words to this song are really a non-issue to most Catholics, not affecting their view of the Eucharist or what the Church believes. I also do NOT believe that a large part of Catholics hold heretical views of the Eucharist, as is commonly stated on these forums. I think those who only have had minimal or no religious education may be confused, I do not think it is a majority of Catholics, esp. among those who are churchgoers. I think the opinions about this song are only those of people on these forums who are a bit more educated about their faith and likely to discuss it. It is not going to cause mass heresy to occur.

I personally don't like the song, but not because of the words. It's too hard too sing and is usually dragged out to fit the time Communion takes.

I tend to agree with CB. Sadly, I don't know nearly enough Catholics who can tell the difference between transubstantiation and consubstatiation. And I do know a great many who do not believe in the real presence. When my child went through first Eucharist prep, they downplayed the idea of it being really Jesus, out of concern that some children might get upset at "eating Him". My own kids get it, because we have spent a lot of time talking about it, and I have explained to them that while it might look and feel and taste like bread and wine, it is really Jesus! Oddly, it seems an easier concept for my kids than for many adults.

The fact that most Catholics don't know the difference between transsubstantiation and consubstantiation is not a justification for the continued use of this song. They need right education in the faith, but music like this only contributes to their lack of knowledge.

This song most definitely promotes the Lutheran concept of consubstantiation. If the first line of the refrain wasn't clear enough, the fifth verse says it all: "All praise to you, O Christ, present in this feast, in this bread we share in one life, one Lord." There are many "communion" hymns which sing of the Eucharist only in terms of bread and wine and should be avoided, but "The Supper of the Lord" is particularly troublesome because at first glance it appears to be orthodox Catholic teaching.

It should not be thought of as "super anal" to be careful with the music we use at Mass. Music and song are powerful psychological tools by which much good can be taught, or much wrong. Ancient heretics like Arius set their heretical ideas to catchy tunes that became part of the popular music of the day, and gained many converts through repetition. Hollywood writers know this well, as they inject movies and sitcoms with their political and religious views, and the effects of such propaganda are obvious. This is why we should scrutinize the lyrics of the hymns we use. Not everything found in the hymnal (especially OCP and GIA products) is theologically accurate.

[quote="curlycool89, post:2, topic:244274"]
Well, if someone wanted to be super-anal, they might point to "Precious body, precious blood, here in bread and wine", the first line.

[/quote]

There is nothing 'super-anal' about theological precision. There have been entire Eccumenical Councils that dealt with such fine points as if Christ has one Nature or two.

And in my Christiology class, you could expect to get marked down if you described the Trinity as being "Three seperate persons" instead of the correct "Three distinct Persons"

Likewise, the texts used at Mass ( of which the musical texts are included) require theological precision. The music is not primary here, if it does not fit what the text needs to say, then change the music.

Maybe they could have said something like…

Precious Body, Precious Blood, seen as bread and wine

or something… honestly it does seem like consubstantiation to me, though they probably (hopefully) didn’t mean it that way. After the Consecration, there is not bread and wine anymore.

I think bread and wine are fine. That is how the consecrated species have been referred to since the time of the apostles. The facture rite is referred to as the 'breaking of the bread' Nobody gets confused. The consecrated bread is Christs body and blood. Same for the consecrated wine. I see no problem in shortening it to bread and wine so long as the context is clear.

OTOH, I know a priest who wants us to refer to the species as body and blood, but that also must be understood in context. Although the bread is referred to as the body of Christ during the canon, we believe it is the body blood soul and divinity of Christ. Same for wine and the blood of Christ.

There are a lot of song that do not meet with the theology of the Church, but this one I would pass.

I know of one choir which changed the refrain to "Precious Body, Precious Blood, no more bread and wine." It didn't fix the sappy, 70's-movie-soundtrack melody, but it made the words orthodox.

The issue with "bread and wine" songs is that they reinforce the all-too-common disbelief in the Real Presence. If you are singing these hymns in a Carmelite monastery, there will probably be little effect on the faith of the friars, but in a typical parish where most people have only a rudimentary understanding of the Catholic faith, they are downright dangerous. What are worse are those songs which reduce the sacrificial nature of the Mass to merely a kind of Apostolic picnic, or those songs which say things like "Jesus became our bread" or "My wine will flow like a sea of gladness." I didn't realize that Jesus shed wine on the Cross.

[quote="Brendan, post:11, topic:244274"]
There is nothing 'super-anal' about theological precision.

[/quote]

I'm sorry, that was not the right term I should have used. I just think it gets a little ridicules here sometimes with people sometimes nit-picking things that are not even wrong but not "good enough" for them.

Yes, it is important to be theologically correct. When I see "here in bread and wine", I think of it as "veiled" in a way. Yes, it's Jesus, but He's hidden and can only been "seen" by those who looks with eyes of faith.

Jesus did call himself the “bread of life”. So I do not see anything wrong with referring to the Eucharist as bread. While hymns should be theologically correct, it shouldn’t be a catechesis in a way that the song is trying to explain the faith.

[quote="BcuzISaidSo, post:9, topic:244274"]
I tend to agree with CB. Sadly, I don't know nearly enough Catholics who can tell the difference between transubstantiation and consubstatiation. And I do know a great many who do not believe in the real presence. When my child went through first Eucharist prep, they downplayed the idea of it being really Jesus,

I think the chirch is so happy to get the volunteers that they do get they don't check hard enough as to what their beliefs are.

[/quote]

[quote="paperwight66, post:7, topic:244274"]
I am an EMHC too, but I have never ever heard that expression - ' a bread or a winer'. i wonder if it is peculiar to your parish.

For your second point, Paul himself refers to the bread and wine, and one of the Acclamations is 'When we eat this bread and drink this cup'.

Many of the hymns that people object to are, in face, straight uses of Bible texts.

[/quote]

It probably is peculiar to my parish. After 37 yrs at a parish in another city, We have been in this parish almost 4 yrs. its hard to change after all that time.

[quote="curlycool89, post:15, topic:244274"]
I'm sorry, that was not the right term I should have used. I just think it gets a little ridicules here sometimes with people sometimes nit-picking things that are not even wrong but not "good enough" for them.

Yes, it is important to be theologically correct. When I see "here in bread and wine", I think of it as "veiled" in a way. Yes, it's Jesus, but He's hidden and can only been "seen" by those who looks with eyes of faith.

[/quote]

I'm amazed at all this dialog. The bottom line is that the music library chosen by most Catholic music directors is from the master list approved (and recently approved again) by the US Council of Bishops. I have been in the music ministry for 40 years, lived in nine different US States. The tone of the music changed to match some local cultural issues to be sure...but in every single case the music could be found either in 1. The Church Approved Hymnal used every Sunday or 2. In special prelude or postlude music pieces that come from the approved master list.

Thus, if it's in the approved list, it is 100% acceptable to the USA Magisterium as a whole.

Since I play guitar as well in my current ensemble I can tell you that I personally purchase a "guitar accompanyment" music book each year from OCP... the one that matches the current approved hymnal found in our church pews.

Finally, I am also cochair of our local RCIA program and can tell you that Transsubstantiation is taught both in the adult and youth programs.

Maybe I have just been lucky in all the Church's that I have been a member that this process has been consistent

[quote="Cavaille-Coll, post:14, topic:244274"]
I know of one choir which changed the refrain to "Precious Body, Precious Blood, no more bread and wine." It didn't fix the sappy, 70's-movie-soundtrack melody, but it made the words orthodox.

The issue with "bread and wine" songs is that they reinforce the all-too-common disbelief in the Real Presence. If you are singing these hymns in a Carmelite monastery, there will probably be little effect on the faith of the friars, but in a typical parish where most people have only a rudimentary understanding of the Catholic faith, they are downright dangerous. What are worse are those songs which reduce the sacrificial nature of the Mass to merely a kind of Apostolic picnic, or those songs which say things like "Jesus became our bread" or "My wine will flow like a sea of gladness." I didn't realize that Jesus shed wine on the Cross.

[/quote]

I think that cantors needs to be educated on the proper hymns for the Church, if they dont know themselves and they are ones who sings, then they should be ones to be educated first.

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