The Three Angels' Messages

The following is a Scripture quote, used to justify a Seventh-day Adventist doctrine called the Three Angels’ Messages. First, how to refute, and second, what is a good Catholic interpretation? (don’t forget the second one! I need it really bad!)

Revelation 6-12, “And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to Him; for the hour of His judgment is come: and worship Him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountain of waters. And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of he holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image [the lost], and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Here is the patience of the saints [the saved]; here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.”

Here’s the SDA site I got it from for more info.

seventh-day.org/3angels.htm

Well - not being too familiar with SDA I tried to find some links for you with information. I found 2 good links with information on SDA and Catholicism and I know the second mentioned something about the 3 angels, but you’re going to have to do the research… :stuck_out_tongue:
Hopefully someone on the forum is ex-SDA and can help you further. Good Luck!!

catholic.com/library/seventh_day_adventism.asp

angelfire.com/ms/seanie/adventism/aindex.html

Anyone else want to take a crack at it?

Catholic Answers has two tracts on the Whore of Babylon that demonstrate the absurdity of identifying the Whore of Babylon with the Catholic Church.

catholic.com/library/Whore_of_Babylon.asp

catholic.com/library/Hunting_the_Whore_of_Babylon.asp

Here are six reasons why I believe that Babylon mentioned in chapters 14-18 in the Book of Revelation refers to Jerusalem.

  1. “Babylon the great, mother of harlots” is referred to as “the great city” numerous times (Rev 18:10, 16, 18, 19, 21). But in Rev 11:8, “the great city” is said to be “where their Lord was crucified” and Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem and not in Rome. So, Babylon in Revelation refers to Jerusalem.

  2. Rev 17:9 says, Bablyon sits on “seven mountains.” But according to the Bible, “the mountains are round about Jerusalem” (Psalm 125:3) and according to Jewish tradition, Jerusalem was built on seven mountains [Mount Acra, Mount Bezetha, Mount Gareb, Mount Goath, Mount Moriah, Mount Ophel, and Mount Zion]. And, Rome was not built on seven mountains but on seven hills: Palatine, Aventine, Capitoline, Quarinal, Viminal, Esquiline and Caelian. (Notice that Vatican Hill upon which the Vatican, the headquarters of the Catholic Church, is built is not among the seven hills of Rome.) So, Babylon in Revelation refers to Jerusalem.

  3. Rev 18:21-24 says, “Babylon the great city … in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints.” But Jesus lamented, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you” (Matt 23:36) and St. Paul says, "in Jerusalem; I not only shut up many of the saints in prison, by authority from the chief priests, but when they were put to death I cast my vote against them. (Acts 26:9-10). And, as far as I know, no Jewish prophet was ever killed in Rome. So, Babylon in Revelation refers to Jerusalem.

  4. Rev 17:15 says, “The waters that you saw, where [Bablyon] the harlot is seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues.” But elsewhere the Bible says, “there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven” (Acts 2:5). So, Babylon in Revelation refers to Jerusalem.

  5. Rev 17:16 says, “And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate [Bablyon] the harlot; they will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire.” But Jesus said, “O Jerusalem…Behold, your house is forsaken and desolate.” (Matt 23:36-37) So, Babylon in Revelation refers to Jerusalem.

  6. Rev 18:4 says, “Come out of her [Babylon], my people.” But Jesus said, “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. … let those who are inside the city depart” (Luke 21:20-21). So, Babylon in Revelation refers to Jerusalem.

Alright, thanks. Now, anyone want to give a shot on what the Catholic interpretation of the Scriptural passage is?

For a general overview of the Church’s teaching on the End Times, I suggest paragraphs 668-682 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church: usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt2art7.htm

The following is taken from The Navarre Bible: Book of Revelation commentary on chapter 14, verses 6-12:

vv. 6-20. Christ comes in victory at the end of time (the Parousia) to judge all mankind. In this passage, which is a general call to conversion, that judgment is solemnly announced in a scenario in which seven personages appear—three angels who proclaim the judgment (cf. vv. 6, 8, 9), the Son of man who delivers it (v. 14), and three more angels charged with implementing it (vv. 15, 17, 19): God’s decision is final and it affects all mankind.
The Church warns us that “since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed (cf. Heb 9:27), we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed (cf. Mt 25:31-46) . . .]. Before we reign with Christ in glory we must all appear ‘before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil according to what he has done in the body’ (2 Cor 5:10), and at the end of the world ‘they will come from, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment’ (Jn 5:29; cf. Mt 25:46)” (Lumen gentium, 48)

vv. 6-7. “Another angel”: this tells us that this angel is not one of those who blew the trumpets (cf. 11:15), and yet is one of the same series of divine messengers that will be sent at the last times. He delivers his message from “midheaven” so that it can be heard by all who dwell on earth. It is a call to acknowledge and worship God as Creator of all things; this presupposes, therefore, that man can “know and love his creator” (Gaudium et spes, 12). And the proclamation is described as “an eternal Gospel” because man’s acknowledgment of God will be ratified and rewarded on the Day of Judgment and wil therefore be valid for ever (cf. Acts 14:15ff; 1 Thess 1:9).

v. 8. Viewed from the perspective of the end of time, the downfall of the Church’s enemy is seen as an accomplished fact. Absolutist and pagan Rome insisted on everyone worshipping the emperor; those who conformed earned God’s anger. Rome is called “Babylon the great” because ever since the deportation of the Jews to that ancient city in 587 B.C. it had symbolized pagan power hostile to the people of God.

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From The Navarre Bible: Book of Revelation commentary on chapter 14:

vv. 9-11. This passage predicts and describes the punishment to be inflicted on those who worship the beast, that is, those who submit to false gods. The “fire and brimstone”, deriving from Genesis 19:24, indicates the horrific nature of the punishment: it will be like that suffered by Sodom and Gomorrah but it will be everlasting and will take place in the presence of the Lamb and his angels.
Eternal punishment of the damned and eternal reward of the elect is a dogma of faith, solemnly defined by the Magisterium in the Fourth Lateran Council: “[Christ] will come at the end of the world; he will judge the living and the dead; and he will reward all, both the damned and the elect, according to their works. And all these will rise from their own bodies which they now have so that they may receive according to their works, whether good or bad; the wicked, a perpetual punishment with the devil; the good, eternal glory with Christ” (De fide catholica, chap. 1).
The punishment suffered in hell will be both spiritual (permanent unhappiness) and physical (pain), because man is made up of spirit and matter. We do not know what form hell takes; however, from what the Book of Revelation says here and from other passages of Sacred Scripture (cf., e.g. Mt 25:41) we can deduce that it involves both pain of loss (of God and eternal happiness) and physical suffering.

v. 12. As in Revelation 13:10, the faithful are exhorted to stand firm in the midst of tribulation, confident in the hope that God will reward each according to his merits. Patience of that type does not mean that one should retreat before the powers of evil or fail to try to secure and guarantee “the conditions needed for the exercise of an authentic Christian freedom” (SCDF, Libertatis conscientia, 31). In this connexion the Second Vatican Council teaches: “Far from diminishing our concern to develop this earth, the expectancy of a new earth should spur us on, for it is ere that the body of a new human family grows, foreshadowing in some way the age which is to come” (Gaudium et spes, 39).

In this passge of the book Christians are told that, in their efforts to deal with the particular persecution which was going on at the time, they should never answer with violence. This teaching always applies where the kind of liberation one is claiming is a temporal one: “Christ has commanded us to love our enemies (cf. Mt 5:44; Lk 6:27-28, 35). Liberation in the spirit of the Gospel is therefore incompatible with hatred of others, taken individually or collectively, and this includes hatred of one’s enemy” (SCDF, Libertatis conscientia, 77).

Thanks so much Todd, I was going to post my question on a new thread, but since you know so much about it…

It seems like Catholic Apologist are trying to do two things at once: On the one hand, in defending the “whore of Babylon” attacks we propose arguements like you do below…

[quote=Todd Easton]Here are six reasons why I believe that Babylon mentioned in chapters 14-18 in the Book of Revelation refers to Jerusalem.

  1. “Babylon the great, mother of harlots” is referred to as “the great city” numerous times (Rev 18:10, 16, 18, 19, 21). But in Rev 11:8, “the great city” is said to be “where their Lord was crucified” and Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem and not in Rome. So, Babylon in Revelation refers to Jerusalem.

  2. Rev 17:9 says, Bablyon sits on “seven mountains.” But according to the Bible, “the mountains are round about Jerusalem” (Psalm 125:3) and according to Jewish tradition, Jerusalem was built on seven mountains [Mount Acra, Mount Bezetha, Mount Gareb, Mount Goath, Mount Moriah, Mount Ophel, and Mount Zion]. And, Rome was not built on seven mountains but on seven hills: Palatine, Aventine, Capitoline, Quarinal, Viminal, Esquiline and Caelian. (Notice that Vatican Hill upon which the Vatican, the headquarters of the Catholic Church, is built is not among the seven hills of Rome.) So, Babylon in Revelation refers to Jerusalem.

  3. Rev 18:21-24 says, “Babylon the great city … in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints.” But Jesus lamented, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you” (Matt 23:36) and St. Paul says, "in Jerusalem; I not only shut up many of the saints in prison, by authority from the chief priests, but when they were put to death I cast my vote against them. (Acts 26:9-10). And, as far as I know, no Jewish prophet was ever killed in Rome. So, Babylon in Revelation refers to Jerusalem.

  4. Rev 17:15 says, “The waters that you saw, where [Bablyon] the harlot is seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues.” But elsewhere the Bible says, “there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven” (Acts 2:5). So, Babylon in Revelation refers to Jerusalem.

  5. Rev 17:16 says, “And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate [Bablyon] the harlot; they will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire.” But Jesus said, “O Jerusalem…Behold, your house is forsaken and desolate.” (Matt 23:36-37) So, Babylon in Revelation refers to Jerusalem.

  6. Rev 18:4 says, “Come out of her [Babylon], my people.” But Jesus said, “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. … let those who are inside the city depart” (Luke 21:20-21). So, Babylon in Revelation refers to Jerusalem.
    [/quote]

and basically say Rome does not equal Babylon so calling the fact that the Catholic Church is called the Roman Catholic Church means nothing.

But when it comes to defending Peter’s primacy, we always mention that when Peter writes that he is writing from Babylon, that Babylon was alway a code word for Rome. Does anyone else see an apparent contradiction here?

[quote=paul_t_brown]Thanks so much Todd, I was going to post my question on a new thread, but since you know so much about it…

It seems like Catholic Apologist are trying to do two things at once: On the one hand, in defending the “whore of Babylon” attacks we propose arguements like you do below…

<snip Todd Eastern’s quote>

and basically say Rome does not equal Babylon so calling the fact that the Catholic Church is called the Roman Catholic Church means nothing.

But when it comes to defending Peter’s primacy, we always mention that when Peter writes that he is writing from Babylon, that Babylon was alway a code word for Rome. Does anyone else see an apparent contradiction here?
[/quote]

I don’t see a contradicion. Both cities at the time fit the bill for being Babylon, but Jerusalem is the Babylon of Rev 11:8 because that was where Jesus was crucified. The way I see it, Babylon refers to a place that has found displeasure in the eyes of God, such as the original Babylon. Pagan Rome, for the persecution of Christians and Jerusalem, both for the crucifixion of Jesus, and the persecution of Christians.

I’m sure someone could explain this far better than me right now. I’m in need of some ZZZzzzs.

Let me ask this another way: I’ve heard (and agree with) all of the reasons adduced for equated Jerusalem with the Whore of Bablyon in Revelation.

I have never heard the reasons what Peter’s reference to Bablyon should be taken as a reference to Rome. The fact is always just stated, with no rationale.

Could someone please help?

In Their Two Hearts.

[quote=paul_t_brown]Let me ask this another way: I’ve heard (and agree with) all of the reasons adduced for equated Jerusalem with the Whore of Bablyon in Revelation.

I have never heard the reasons what Peter’s reference to Bablyon should be taken as a reference to Rome. The fact is always just stated, with no rationale.

Could someone please help?

In Their Two Hearts.
[/quote]

I don’t remember it off the top of my head, but I remember reading about it in some of the Early Church Fathers writings.

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