The TLM and the NO

I have gone to a few TLM’s and even though I don’t know hardly any Latin I have to say I love the reverence at the Mass. In another forum I posed the question if it would be allowable for more elements of the TLM to be used in the NO. More specifically I would like to see the TLM just be said in english. I wouldn’t even mind some Latin in the NO such as the Kyrie Elasion and the Gloria being done in Latin. My original question was if this would be allowed (TLM being done in English) and I was told not only would it be allowed but this was the intention of VII.

Does anyone know if any Churches have a Mass like this already? I do love the TLM but it is really hard to follow along when not knowing any Latin. Even with the Missal it’s hard if you don’t know what part of the Mass they are at. I would very much like to see the TLM done in English, I think it would do a lot to bring back reverence to the Mass.

[quote=Petertherock]I have gone to a few TLM’s and even though I don’t know hardly any Latin I have to say I love the reverence at the Mass. In another forum I posed the question if it would be allowable for more elements of the TLM to be used in the NO. More specifically I would like to see the TLM just be said in english. I wouldn’t even mind some Latin in the NO such as the Kyrie Elasion and the Gloria being done in Latin. My original question was if this would be allowed (TLM being done in English) and I was told not only would it be allowed but this was the intention of VII.

Does anyone know if any Churches have a Mass like this already? I do love the TLM but it is really hard to follow along when not knowing any Latin. Even with the Missal it’s hard if you don’t know what part of the Mass they are at. I would very much like to see the TLM done in English, I think it would do a lot to bring back reverence to the Mass.
[/quote]

I don’t know if the 1962 Mass would ever be said in English. I assist at only the TLM and at first it was a little hard finding my place in the Mass. I was surprised at how quickly I was able to follow along. Within 2 weeks I only had a little difficulty following along and after a month I was not having a problem at all.

It just takes time. Go back a few more times and you will get the hang of it…

[quote=Petertherock]I have gone to a few TLM’s and even though I don’t know hardly any Latin I have to say I love the reverence at the Mass. In another forum I posed the question if it would be allowable for more elements of the TLM to be used in the NO. More specifically I would like to see the TLM just be said in english. I wouldn’t even mind some Latin in the NO such as the Kyrie Elasion and the Gloria being done in Latin. My original question was if this would be allowed (TLM being done in English) and I was told not only would it be allowed but this was the intention of VII.

Does anyone know if any Churches have a Mass like this already? I do love the TLM but it is really hard to follow along when not knowing any Latin. Even with the Missal it’s hard if you don’t know what part of the Mass they are at. I would very much like to see the TLM done in English, I think it would do a lot to bring back reverence to the Mass.
[/quote]

The Kyrie is actually Greek… short and powerful… it should not change.

The TLM incorporated the official language of the Church… which was Latin (I believe there are now 5 Official Languages of the Church).

So, the Office of Divine Worship would have to determine if English, or any other language, could be used. Latin is not so hard to pronounce, and works well when placed side-by-side with English. My vote: keep the Latin

Maybe for you Latin isn’t hard. But I don’t understand it. My original intention for this thread was not to debate all Latin and no English. I just questioned whether the TLM could be said in English. If this is not possible then I will stick to the NO. Although I do think major changes are needed to the NO to make it more reverend.

I want to be able to understand what is being said at the Mass. I don’t want to go back to the days of people saying the rosary during Mass because they don’t know what is going on.

[quote=Petertherock]I just questioned whether the TLM could be said in English.
[/quote]

From what I have read in other threads, this was experimented with (by means of indult?) in some isolation prior to or even during the period of reform following the Vatican II Council. I cannot take the time to find those links right now, so I apologize. I know recently it was pointed out that this took place in the Phillippines (obviously not English, though) for a substantial period of time.

I don’t want to go back to the days of people saying the rosary during Mass because they don’t know what is going on.

Native English-speaking people (although probably fewer, admittedly) *still *say the rosary during the vernacular, “actively participatory” NO Mass. I am so tired of that argument being used against Latin and the TLM! :yawn:

The 1964 Missal was basically the 1962 Missal allowed in English.

Really big changes started in 1965:

traditionalromanmass.blogspot.com/2005/09/missale-romanum-1965.html

The Anglican Usage (which is included in the Latin Rite) is a sort of home for Traditionalist Anglicans who feel the Anglican Church has left them.

If you are interested in something like the Tridentine Mass said in English, you may want to try to find a parish that uses the Anglican Usage. What it pretty much is is a combination of the ancient Sarum Rite and the first Book of Common Prayer, the Tridentine Mass and the Novus Ordo. We have a parish here in Portland, OR that is in communication with the Vatican. It left the Anglican Communion in the late 70s, when they began ordaining women and joined some of the more traditional Anglican Churches. That whole communion is in talks with the Holy See about coming into communion with Rome under the Anglican Usage.

It isn’t exactly the Tridentine Mass in English, but the translations are well done and beautiful.

You can check out their order of Mass here:

liturgies.net/Liturgies/Catholic/RCCAnglicanUse.htm

Adam

Many Anglicans and Episcopalians used to use either the English Missal or the Anglican Missal. These were both English translations of the Tridentine rite including the prayers for the Pope. The ceremonial used with them was also Tridentine. Sadly few Anglican/Episcopalian churches use these anymore (many such churches now use Novus Ordo) but even more sad is the fact that when the Mass was first translated into English in 1965 recourse wans’t had to these missals, especially for the Ordinary of the Mass where there would have been no questions about the partial use of the King James Bible (primarily in the lessons but not necessarily in the rest of the Propers).

In 1965 we all prayed in “Thee/Thou” English e.g. the Our Father and the Hail Mary. It seems the bishops wanted to go to modern English and that’s where the trouble started.

If you can read, you can “know what is going on”, you can understand. All it takes is an english/latin missal and a bit of effort. Granted, it is very different from the way you would participate in the NO, but in my eyes, that’s the beauty of it. :wink:

I don’t know whether the TLM could be done in English. But my question to you is, why? It really does not take long to be comfortable enough with Latin to follow along in an english/latin missal. Maybe, 2 or 3 Masses. This doesn’t mean you KNOW Latin, just that you are comfortable with the sound of it and can tell from the positions of the priest where he is in the Mass. Plus, you have the security of knowing that the language is ancient and unchanging. You are saying exactly the same things as Catholics have since July 14, 1570 (Pope St. Pius V’s papal bull: dailycatholic.org/quoprimu.htm ), and much the same thing as Catholics long before that even. There’s no question of proper translation and so forth.

I totally understand your desire to know what is being said–that’s prefectly natural and good. The prayers of the TLM are incredibly beautiful and so much more full (that’s the only way I can describe it) than their corresponding parts in the NO.

You asked whether the TLM could be said in English and whether or not that was what Vatican II was looking for.

Well, strictly speaking, of course the TLM could be said in English (although it would then cease to be a T_L_M but rather a possibly TEM) because Rome has full authority to change such things. This is currently not allowed at all, but it could be changed were a pope to decide to do so. Whether that would be wise is an entirely different question.

As to whether this is what Vatican II envisioned, that is an emphatic “no.” Sacrosanctum Concilium obviously does not call for a wholesale abandonment of Latin, or even a predominantly vernacular liturgy with some use of Latin. Rather, Latin is to maintain pride of place with a very limited use of the vernacular in those areas, such as the readings, where it was thought to be most beneficial.

[quote=Petertherock]I have gone to a few TLM’s and even though I don’t know hardly any Latin I have to say I love the reverence at the Mass. In another forum I posed the question if it would be allowable for more elements of the TLM to be used in the NO. More specifically I would like to see the TLM just be said in english. I wouldn’t even mind some Latin in the NO such as the Kyrie Elasion and the Gloria being done in Latin. My original question was if this would be allowed (TLM being done in English) and I was told not only would it be allowed but this was the intention of VII.

Does anyone know if any Churches have a Mass like this already? I do love the TLM but it is really hard to follow along when not knowing any Latin. Even with the Missal it’s hard if you don’t know what part of the Mass they are at. I would very much like to see the TLM done in English, I think it would do a lot to bring back reverence to the Mass.
[/quote]

There are a few parishes that have TLM elements in their mass such as use of some Latin, use of the altar rail for communion, even some have the priest facing the altar, such examples are the Assumption Grotto in Detroit and St. Agnes in St. Paul MN. So yes, it is indeed allowed.

[quote=Petertherock]Maybe for you Latin isn’t hard. But I don’t understand it. My original intention for this thread was not to debate all Latin and no English. I just questioned whether the TLM could be said in English. If this is not possible then I will stick to the NO. Although I do think major changes are needed to the NO to make it more reverend.

I want to be able to understand what is being said at the Mass. I don’t want to go back to the days of people saying the rosary during Mass because they don’t know what is going on.
[/quote]

Ummmmm if it were said in English, it would stop being the TLM (Traditional Latin Mass).

It has been repeated ad naseum on this board that there is really very little demand for the Traditional Latin Mass. So I would imagine there would be even less for the Traditional English Mass. If Father started spouting English at a TLM, most traditionalists would flee in horror.

And what English translation would be used? Every Missal I’ve seen varies slightly or significantly in its translation. Which one is the standard? Or, would you rather give the task of translating the 1962 Missal to ICEL? I can just hear it now. Instead of :

And I will go in to the altar of God: to God Who giveth joy to my youth.

We’d get:

And I will approach the table of the Lord, who makes me giggle like a baby. :rolleyes:

No thanks. :nope:

[quote=Petertherock]Maybe for you Latin isn’t hard. But I don’t understand it. My original intention for this thread was not to debate all Latin and no English. I just questioned whether the TLM could be said in English. If this is not possible then I will stick to the NO. Although I do think major changes are needed to the NO to make it more reverend.

I want to be able to understand what is being said at the Mass. I don’t want to go back to the days of people saying the rosary during Mass because they don’t know what is going on.
[/quote]

Since I am as liguistically talented as Daffy Duck, but still loved the TLM, I got videos of it and watched them on the weekend before Mass.
Then I got a CD with the prayers in Gregorian Chant, and run it in my car.
Soon enough, VOILA, it all comes as “second nature”.
The next job was to get the 12 kids up to speed. The Meal prayers went Latin, then the Rosary, then singing the prayers in Latin. VOILA, you should hear a 4 year old say the Grace before meals in Latin. What a hoot!
Yep, I bribed them. But it worked.

i would think that it be more important to be aware of what is going on rather than what is being said.
the instruction generally comes with the reading of the epistle and the gospel.
the tridentine mass is a sacrificial rite. bloodless to be sure. with a victim and the sharing of the body, blood, soul and divinity of jesus.
i wonder how many have been given instruction on the mass and understand?
have a good year. alih.

(warning- I may consider myself a soon to be ex-Protestant, but I have still never been to a Mass either English or Latin)

Would there be that big a problem of having the entire Ordinary of the Mass be in Latin, while the Proper could be in English? Since the Ordinary stays the same, people would learn it faster? (Perhaps this is what is meant by a Latin Mass, if so please forgive my ignorance)

Get a missal and keep at it, it does take a while but it is so worth it.

We have the Sunday Epistle and Gospel in Latin and prior to the Homily it is repeated in Orstralian for the iggerant locals so if you forget you Missal you still get the picture…

This is always groovy if the priest’s first language is New Zealand, Spanish, Fench, Canadian or …American:D . The priests latin is so much more comprehendable.

TNT wrote:

“VOILA”

Why not say that in Latin? (Just joking, of course!)

Melanie01 wrote

This is always groovy if the priest’s first language is New Zealand, Spanish, Fench, Canadian or …American:D . The priests latin is so much more comprehendable.

Not always!

I was an altar boy from c. 1944 to 1950. Possibly you may have heard of the sayinf of Mass as being “The blessed mutter of the Mass” or similar? We, I can certainly vouch for the fact that many - probably most of the priests and bishops that I served were quite UNintelligible in their pronouncing of the latin words!!!

I have also - on numerous occasions - been an attendant at the Mass of an Order Priest located in Sydney, who is an associate of the SSPX, and who have never celebrated Mass in the Pauline Liturgy.

He was wracked with a diabolical (figuratively) horrible affliction of scruples; every syllable of every word of both consecrations were excrutiationably drawn out as in the following manner:

“Hhhhhhhhiiiiiccccckkkkk eeessssssstttttt Corrrrrrrpuuussssssss meeeeuuuuuuuummmm.”

If it were not so serious - it would have been hilariously funny! And many a poor child DID get the giggles!

My parish does as Melanie says below: after the Latin reading of the Epistle and Gospel, they are repeated in English, just before the sermon.

[quote=msproule]From what I have read in other threads, this was experimented with (by means of indult?) in some isolation prior to or even during the period of reform following the Vatican II Council. I cannot take the time to find those links right now, so I apologize. I know recently it was pointed out that this took place in the Phillippines (obviously not English, though) for a substantial period of time.

Native English-speaking people (although probably fewer, admittedly) *still *say the rosary during the vernacular, “actively participatory” NO Mass. I am so tired of that argument being used against Latin and the TLM! :yawn:
[/quote]

I’m British but live in the Philippines. Masses are mainly in English. Its only the homily where the priest uses both English and Tagalog.

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.