The Tridentine

Very simply, the question is this:

Does anyone hold that there is any chance that Benedict might bring back the Tridentine and do anything to reverse any of Vatican II?

[quote=Scholastic17]Very simply, the question is this:

Does anyone hold that there is any chance that Benedict might bring back the Tridentine and do anything to reverse any of Vatican II?
[/quote]

He should allow for a greater use of the Tridentine rite, but never a reversal of anything from Vatican II. He will instead strive for a true, more faithful reinterpretation of the Council (and he would know what a faithful interpretation is because he worked at the Council).

[quote=Scholastic17]Very simply, the question is this:

Does anyone hold that there is any chance that Benedict might bring back the Tridentine and do anything to reverse any of Vatican II?
[/quote]

Our Brother, Defender of the Faith. Answers this question very well. I hope His Holiness, makes wider use of the TLM. In all of the State of Louisiana. I think there are only 2 approved TLM’s. One SSPX and 1 or 2 Independent chapels. While right across the border from Northwest Louisiana. The Diocese of Tyler Texas has free use of the 1962 Missal. Their wonderful Bishop makes sure the Priest knows the rubrics and latin before he gives the okay.

[quote=Fidei Defensor]He should allow for a greater use of the Tridentine rite, but never a reversal of anything from Vatican II.
[/quote]

I personally don’t like the Nostrae Aetate document too much. It seems to fly in the face of previously established tradition. It seems to spit in the face of all those Europeans who died in the Crusades.

Just wanted to note that St. Patrick’s in New Orleans has the TLM (archdiocese parish).

oldstpatricks.org/

[quote=proudnifi]Just wanted to note that St. Patrick’s in New Orleans has the TLM (archdiocese parish).

oldstpatricks.org/
[/quote]

That’s like an hour away though. :frowning:

[quote=QUICUMQUE VULT]Our Brother, Defender of the Faith. Answers this question very well. I hope His Holiness, makes wider use of the TLM. In all of the State of Louisiana. I think there are only 2 approved TLM’s. One SSPX and 1 or 2 Independent chapels. While right across the border from Northwest Louisiana. The Diocese of Tyler Texas has free use of the 1962 Missal. Their wonderful Bishop makes sure the Priest knows the rubrics and latin before he gives the okay.
[/quote]

Quicumque Vult

I emailed the director of Liturgical Celebrations (or some official title like that) and he responded that the Archbishop is really adament about not having a TLM outside of St. Patricks. I know several priests who know how to and would love to celebrate this Mass publicly but the Archbishop will not grant the “wide and generous application.”

[quote=Scholastic17]I personally don’t like the Nostrae Aetate document too much. It seems to fly in the face of previously established tradition. It seems to spit in the face of all those Europeans who died in the Crusades.
[/quote]

Just my opinion, but I think it’s possible for faithful Catholics to accept the legitimacy of the Council, while believing that some of its documents could have been more carefully worded. In other words, although these documents (such as Nostra Aetate) can be interpreted in a way that’s consistent with Sacred Tradition, this is by no means obvious at first reading. They seem rather open to the interpreters’ bias, be it modernist (rejecting historical Catholic teaching) or integrist (rejecting Vatican II). Kind of makes me wonder if the Holy Spirit decided to let the Council Fathers have a very long leash, so to speak…and, if so, why? :hmmm:

Anyway, regarding the Traditional Latin Mass, here’s a quotation from The Ratzinger Report (Ignatius Press, 1985).

Far from regarding [John Paul II’s 1984 indult] on the lines of a “restoration,” [Cardinal Ratzinger] saw it rather in the context of that “legitimate pluralism” which has been so stressed by Vatican II and its interpreters.

Let us hear the Cardinal himself: “Prior to Trent a multitude of rites and liturgies had been allowed within the Church. (…) If it would foster devotion in many believers and encourage respect for the piety of particular Catholic groups, I would personally support a return to the ancient situation, i.e., to a certain liturgical pluralism. Provided, of course, that the legitimate character of the reformed rites was emphatically affirmed, and that there was a clear delineation of the extent and nature of such an exception permitting the celebration of the pre-conciliar liturgy.”

It will be interesting to see to what extent the Holy Father’s actions, this week, are consistent with his words of 20 years ago.

[quote=proudnifi]Just wanted to note that St. Patrick’s in New Orleans has the TLM (archdiocese parish).

oldstpatricks.org/
[/quote]

Yes, I am A proud member of this Parish.

[quote=SummaTheo]Quicumque Vult

I emailed the director of Liturgical Celebrations (or some official title like that) and he responded that the Archbishop is really adament about not having a TLM outside of St. Patricks. I know several priests who know how to and would love to celebrate this Mass publicly but the Archbishop will not grant the “wide and generous application.”
[/quote]

I was wondering about that. The pastor of St. Benildes came about once A month to St. Patricks. (pre katrina) and learned the TLM.

My understanding was that He wanted to institute it in His Parish. nerver heard what happened with that. You know it didnt take Him long to learn to say the Tridentine Mass.
He was A wonderful young Priest!

[quote=Scholastic17]That’s like an hour away though. :frowning:
[/quote]

It is absolutely worth an hour’s drive. I live about 40 minutes from there and attended the Tridentine Mass last Sunday. It is very well done and absolutely beautiful. The church itself is stunning.

[quote=Scholastic17]Very simply, the question is this:

Does anyone hold that there is any chance that Benedict might bring back the Tridentine and do anything to reverse any of Vatican II?
[/quote]

There is no need for us to go back to pre Vatican II. Tridentine Mass can be celebrated even now (vatican II). Vatican II is great. There is nothing wrong with the Vatican II even you are a Traditional catholic. The only problem is that Vatican II was viewed by some priests as a total renewal of Pre Vatican II.

What are some things that some radical and modern priest ignored in the Vatican II especially in terms of Liturgy?

  1. The use of Latin. - The Sacrosanctum Concillium (SC) tells us that Latin still be used in the liturgy though vernacular is approved.
    1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.
  1. But since the use of the mother tongue, whether in the Mass, the administration of the sacraments, or other parts of the liturgy, frequently may be of great advantage to the people, the limits of its employment may be extended. This will apply in the first place to the readings and directives, and to some of the prayers and chants, according to the regulations on this matter to be laid down separately in subsequent chapters.
  1. Tridentine Mass can still be celebrated in public. It only needs indult from the Bishop. But can be celebrated privately.

  2. The use of Gregorian chants should be encouraged in all churches. And the use of Organ (pipe).

  1. The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.

But other kinds of sacred music, especially polyphony, are by no means excluded from liturgical celebrations, so long as they accord with the spirit of the liturgical action, as laid down in Art. 30

  1. The Divine Office. Though i know there are churches who are doing the divine office with he community but still there are many who doesn’t. I Think only few lay catholic especially born after VII knew the dicine office.

These are some things which i noted in the present.

The only problem with the V2 is that some of these changes in traditions were given in the discretion of the bishop with the approval of the Vatican without thinking that these might have an effect on a great change which might lead in total change in the traditions of the church.

[quote=QUICUMQUE VULT]I was wondering about that. The pastor of St. Benildes came about once A month to St. Patricks. (pre katrina) and learned the TLM.

My understanding was that He wanted to institute it in His Parish. nerver heard what happened with that. You know it didnt take Him long to learn to say the Tridentine Mass.
He was A wonderful young Priest!
[/quote]

My theology teacher told me what happened. He got the indult prior to Katrina. Then after Katrina he said the mass at St. Benildes and the Archbishop fussed at him and so no TLM. Hopefully after this Thursday that will change.

Getting an indult from most Bishops is IMPOSSIBLE. Hopefully that will change after this Thursday.

[quote=Scholastic17]That’s like an hour away though. :frowning:
[/quote]

We drive a little over an hour to get to Mass. It is really not that bad once you make the decision to do it. The drive actually helps make sure that the entire day is geared toward our Lord and family time.

[quote=viktor aleksndr] The only problem is that Vatican II was viewed by some priests as a total renewal of Pre Vatican II.

[/quote]

SOME, that’s an understatement.

[quote=Scholastic17]I personally don’t like the Nostrae Aetate document too much. It seems to fly in the face of previously established tradition. It seems to spit in the face of all those Europeans who died in the Crusades.
[/quote]

I don’t see what tradition it flies in. The Church has always called for peace among people of different religions. The Church also values all people regardless of religion and calls them to fulfill their calling and embrace the fullness of the Truth.

The Church has always seen truth in other religions and has never tried to tear down what was good–NA just lays that out in detail.

Likewise, it was Pope St. Gregory VII in the 11th century who said Muslims worship the same God (check the footnotes of Nostra Aetate).

Likewise, the Crusaders would have preferred peace to war. Nostra Aetate calls the Muslims to peace too. Also, we should not hold a grudge against those who have attacked us and we have had to fight against–we are called to be meek and to forgive–vengenance is the Lord’s alone.

Some things you should read showing the Tradition about the Church existing in peace with other religions and treating their adherants with respect as well as accepting what is true from them:

Pope Blessed Gregory X, Protection Of The Jews October 7, 1272

(read the whole thing)

Pope Paul III, Sublimus Dei (On the Enslavement and Evangelization of Indians) May 29, 1537

(read the whole thing, but epsecially how those outside the faith should be treated and what means should be used to convert them)

Pope Pius XII, Summi Pontificatus (On the Unity of Human Society) October 10, 1939

(read the whole thing)

Pope Pius XII, Evangelii Praecones (Promotion of Catholic Missions) June 2, 1951

  1. Although owing to Adam’s fall, human nature is tainted with original sin, yet it has in itself something that is naturally Christian[43]; and this, if illumined by divine delight and nourished by God’s grace, can eventually be changed into true and supernatural virtue.

  2. This is the reason why the Catholic Church has neither scorned nor rejected the pagan philosophies. Instead, after freeing them from error and all contamination she has perfected and completed them by Christian revelation. So likewise the Church has graciously made her own the native art and culture which in some countries is so highly developed. She has carefully encouraged them and has brought them to a point of aesthetic perfection that of themselves they probably would never have attained. By no means has she repressed native customs and traditions but has given them a certain religious significance; she has even transformed their feast days and made them serve to commemorate the martyrs and to celebrate mysteries of the faith. In this connection, St. Basil says very well: “Just as dyers prepare the material to be dyed by certain processes beforehand and only when this has been done do they color it with purple or some other color: likewise if the unfading glory of the just is to be ours for all time we shall first be prepared by these external rites and then we shall master the teachings and mysteries of Faith. When we become accustomed to looking at the reflection of the sun in the water, we shall turn to gaze upon the sun itself. . . Certainly the essential function of a tree is to produce fruit in season; still the foliage that its branches also bear serves to adorn it. In the same way the primary fruit of the soul is truth itself; but the garb of natural culture is a welcome addition, just as leaves provide shade for the fruit and add to its beauty.** Thus Moses, a man of the greatest renown for his wisdom, is said to have come to the contemplation of Him, Who is, only after being trained in Egyptian lore. So later the wise Daniel is said to have been first schooled in Babylon in the wisdom of the Chaldeans, and only then to have come to know Divine Revelation.”**[44]

  3. We ourselves made the following statement in the first Encyclical Letter We wrote, Summi Pontificatus: “Persevering research carried out with laborious study, on the part of her missionaries of every age, has been undertaken in order to facilitate the deeper appreciative insight into the various civilizations and to utilize their good qualities to facilitate and render more fruitful the preaching of the Gospel of Christ. **Whatever there is in the native customs that is not inseparably bound up with superstition and error will always receive kindly consideration and, when possible, will be preserved intact.”[45] **

It looks to me that the Fathers of the Second Vatican Council were simply obeying Pius XII in drafting Nostra Aetate.

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