The Truth About God


#1

**The entire Holy Scripture, and all the doctrines therefrom of the churches in the Christian world, teach that there is a God and that He is one.

**[font=Arial]Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah (Deut. 6:4; also Mark 12:29). **

Surely God is in thee, and beside Me there is no god (Isa. 45:14).

Am not I Jehovah? and there is no god besides me? (Isa. 45:21).

I am Jehovah thy God and thou shalt acknowledge no god beside Me (Hosea 13:4).

Thus saith Jehovah, the king of Israel, I am the First and the Last, and beside Me there is no god (Isa. 44:6).

In that day Jehovah shall be king over all the earth; in that day Jehovah shall be one and His name one (Zech. 14:9).

The above saying contradicts the trinity of three Divine persons before creation.

Harry
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#2

Then explain this

Then God said, “Let **us ** make man in **our ** image, after **our ** likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.” (Genesis 1:26)

In Christ,
Hans


#3

I feel compelled to ask since you take it as obvious that these Scriptures, which by the way come to you from Israel and Catholicism, so easily undermine the doctrine that there is one divine being, ever existent in three distince persons. There is no denying the substantial unity of the divine being, at least this is what the Scriptures and the Church evidently and explicitly teach and have from time immemorial.

Just one other quick question, is it really plausible that the greatest minds of the last 2000 years in the Catholic Church would have just overlooked the Scriptures you quote, and somehow missed how they “obviously” contradict the ancient belief that God is a tri-une being? That doesn’t seem at all credulous to me.

[quote=SpiritualSon]**The entire Holy Scripture, and all the doctrines therefrom of the churches in the Christian world, teach that there is a God and that He is one. **

****[font=Arial]Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah (Deut. 6:4; also Mark 12:29). ****

**Surely God is in thee, and beside Me there is no god (Isa. 45:14). **

**Am not I Jehovah? and there is no god besides me? (Isa. 45:21). **

**I am Jehovah thy God and thou shalt acknowledge no god beside Me (Hosea 13:4). **

**Thus saith Jehovah, the king of Israel, I am the First and the Last, and beside Me there is no god (Isa. 44:6). **

**In that day Jehovah shall be king over all the earth; in that day Jehovah shall be one and His name one (Zech. 14:9). **

The above saying contradicts the trinity of three Divine persons before creation.

Harry
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#4

wait wait… are you a JW?

-D


#5

[quote=Hans A.]Then explain this
Then God said, “Let **us **make man in **our **image, after **our **likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.” (Genesis 1:26)

In Christ,
Hans
[/quote]

One of God’s name is called Elohim,which means truth.Angels and men are image and likeness of God. God’s Divine Essence is Divine Truth and Divine Good.Angels and men are forms are good and truth from God.This is what makes them an image and likeness of Him. God is called Elohim, because good and truth can be express as many time as there are angels in heaven and men on earth who are being regenerated. For this reason angels are called little gods,because they are children of God. The words in Genesis,Let us make man is not about three persons. It is meant for the angels and men who images and likeness of God.

These who become an image and likeness of through regeneration have the power to heal and destroy.

The angel stretched out his hand against Jerusalem to destroy it but Jehovah repented Him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough, now stay thy hand. And David saw the angel that smote the people (2 Samuel xxiv. 16, 17); besides other passages. Because the angels have such power they are called powers; as in David:-- Bless Jehovah, ye angels, mighty in power (Psalm ciii. 20).

swedenborg.newearth.org/hh/hh26.html

Harry


#6

The Gopsel According to St. John, Chapter 1

1 In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. …
14 And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth.

Does this not indicate at least at duality of persons within the Godhead?

Justin


#7

[quote=darcee]wait wait… are you a JW?

-D
[/quote]

No, I am a member of the New Church (Swedenborg).

The Creed of the New Church:
I believe in one God in whom is the Divine Trinity,and that God is Our Lord Jesus Christ.The saving faith is to believe in Him. Evil must be shun because they are sins,and because they are from hell and are of hell. Good must be done because good is from God and are of God.It must be believed that the good works we do are done by God in us and through us.

Repentance is first thing of the church in man.It is the first before charity and good works, because without repentance,charity and good works is nothing. Charity done by an evil person,who has not repented is a fake charity. This means the Lord is not in the person. When the person repents their evil as sins,and tries to live right the Lord enter the person,and whatever goods the person does is true good.

I am against faith alone.Without good works faith is nothing.

Harry


#8

“Have I been so long a time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Believest thou not that I am in the Father and the Father in me ? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself:but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Believe me that I AM in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works sake.” John 14:9-11

Again the words In the beginning was the WORD and
the WORD was with God and the WORD was God…
AND the WORD was made flesh and dwelt among us…!

The fact that you do not understand the Trinity…is clear…neither do I, however, I do understand the words of God in the Sacred Scriptures and realize that I do not have the mind of GOD…when we see Him face to face…we will understand ! blessings


#9

Oh, well. I was expecting him to correct me with the New World translation…

So much for sneakiness…

Justin


#10

The fact that you do not understand the Trinity…is clear…neither do I, however, I do understand the words of God in the Sacred Scriptures and realize that I do not have the mind of GOD…when we see Him face to face…we will understand ! blessingsI do understand the Divine Trinity.It is in Our Lord Jesus Christ.It is a Trinity of one Person, not three. Jehovah God did not divide Himself into three.Everyone has soul,body and spirit. In the Lord the Soul,Body and Spirit is the Father,Son and Holy Spirit.This is called a Trinity.The Lord’s Trinity is Divine, ours is human. God is one Person, just like we are one person.God did not become three person.That is a misunderstanding on the early church’s part.It began at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD.

A Council was called because the Divinity of Jesus Christ was being denied. It was being deny by a man name Arius and his followers. The members at that Council could not prove how Jesus Christ was God, and so they invented a trinity of three Divine persons before creation and use the words in Genesis, “Let us make man” to defend their false doctrine.

They failed to read the Word correctly or they would had seen that it was Jehovah God who descended, born as a child,just like us,in order to be our Saviour and Redeemer. There were no son of God before creation, because there were no man alive to redeem.Who is He going to redeem? Did He redeem the Father or did the Father redeem Him? Why would Jehovah God share glory His with another by haven a second person with the same Divine Essence,equal to Him? There is no such thing as god from God.

I Jehovah will give thee for a covenant to the people, for a light of the nations. I am Jehovah, that is My name, and My glory will I not give to another (Isa.42:6, 8). Glory means Divinity.

God is one in Person and in Essence.Amen

Harry:)



#11

[quote=SpiritualSon]I do understand the Divine Trinity. It is in Our Lord Jesus Christ.It is a Trinity of one Person, not three. Jehovah God did not divide Himself into three.Everyone has soul,body and spirit. In the Lord the Soul,Body and Spirit is the Father,Son and Holy Spirit.This is called a Trinity.The Lord’s Trinity is Divine, ours is human. God is one Person, just like we are one person.God did not become three person.That is a misunderstanding on the early church’s part.It began at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD.
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But we do NOT assert that the divinity of God is divided! Each Person of the Holy Trinity is singular and separate to the Others, but His glory and majesty One and Eternal, not divided!

from the Athanasian Creed:
*"And the Catholic Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
**Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance. ***
For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

We, as men with limited intelect and wisdom (darkened by Original Sin) can understand these two separate things:

  1. God is One, undivided.
  2. There are Three Divine Persons, eact unique and separate.
    But God’s revelation states that for God both statements above is true regarding his nature. We cannot fully comprehend this, but that’s WHY the Trinity is called a MYSTERY!
    Faith is to believe something we cannot see (and sometimes, understand). The reward of faith is to see (and perhaps understand) that that we believe!


There were no son of God before creation, because there were no man alive to redeem.Who is He going to redeem? Did He redeem the Father or did the Father redeem Him? Why would Jehovah God share glory His with another by haven a second person with the same Divine Essence,equal to Him? There is no such thing as god from God.

Your understanding on this justification of your argument is tied with your limitedness in time. “before” is something we perceive because we are “in time”. God is boyond that. He trancends time. His “time” is eternal – never changing
If at one time He is One Person, and “after a moment” (i.e. creation) He is Three, then God is not eternal! which is absurd, since God is changeless! or else He wouldn’t be God!

“The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
he Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal.”


#12

[quote=1962Missal]Does this not indicate at least at duality of persons within the Godhead?

Justin
[/quote]

**Jehovah God came down as the Divine Truth but without separating the Divine Good is evident from the Lord’s conception, about which we read that ‘the power of the Most High overshadowed Mary’ (Luke 1:35). The ‘power of the Most High’ means the Divine Good. The same point can be established by the passages in which He says that the Father is in Him and He in the Father; that all things of the Father’s are His; and that He and the Father are one, and many more. ‘Father’ means the Divine Good.

***It is little understood in the church why the Lord is called the Word. It is because “the Word” signifies Divine truth or Divine wisdom, and the Lord is Divine truth itself or Divine wisdom itself. And this is why He is called the Light, of which also it is said that it came into the world. As the Divine Wisdom and the Divine Love make one, and in the Lord had been a one from eternity, it is said, “In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.” “Life” is Divine love; and “light” is Divine wisdom.

It is this one that is meant by, “In the beginning the Word was with God, and God was the Word.” “With God,” is in God, for wisdom is in love, and love in wisdom.This means there were no second person as the Word.

So in another place in John: And now, O Father, glorify Thou Me with Thine own Self, with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was (John 17:5). “With Thine own Self,” is in Thyself, and therefore it is said, “and God was the Word.”

Glorify thou Me, means the Divine in Jesus was glorifing His Human, thus making Himself Divine in soul and body.

And elsewhere, that the Lord is in the Father, and the Father in Him; and that He and the Father are one, as the Divine and Human in Jesus Christ are one. As therefore the Word is the Divine Wisdom of the Divine Love, it follows that it is Jehovah Himself, the Lord by whom all things were made that are made.For all things have been created from Divine love by means of Divine wisdom.

Harry

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#13

[quote=SpiritualSon]**And elsewhere, that the Lord is in the Father, and the Father in Him; and that He and the Father are one, … it follows that it is Jehovah Himself, the Lord by whom all things were made that are made.For all things have been created from Divine love by means of Divine wisdom.

Harry

**
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Then it doesn’t make sense all those instances mentioned in the Gospels when Jesus was talking or praying to His heavenly Father. What about, for example, Jesus’ anguish in the garden of Olives when he begged His Father to “take [His] chalice [of suffering] from Him”. Was He then talking to Himself? Even if He did, why did He beg to Himself for a favour/request? The Church was quick to spot this heresy.


#14

I think you misunderstand what “faith alone” means. I know that other religions that have since split off from the Lutheran movement have taken it in a bit different direction but the Lutheran view is this and it coincides with the Catholic view on all but a few details.

Faith and works are a product of God’s Grace, we as humans cannot do any merits that help in our assurance towards salvation. So is faith without works nothing? Absolutely and works without faith is nothing. As conduits of God’s Grace we will inevitably bear good fruit, if you are not the bearer of good fruit you need to ask yourself why.


#15

There cannot be a Father if there is no Son. So the Son, Father and Spirit have always existed. God is all perfect, therefor he cannot change. He is now as he has always been. Complete and outside of time.
When the Godhead is mentioned in the OT, the sense of the word is a singular/plural like one bunch of grapes.


#16

[quote=SpiritualSon]I do understand the Divine Trinity.It is in Our Lord Jesus Christ.It is a Trinity of one Person, not three. Jehovah God did not divide Himself into three.Everyone has soul,body and spirit. In the Lord the Soul,Body and Spirit is the Father,Son and Holy Spirit.This is called a Trinity.The Lord’s Trinity is Divine, ours is human. God is one Person, just like we are one person.God did not become three person.That is a misunderstanding on the early church’s part.It began at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD.
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You know, I love stuff like this, I really do. This type of thing coming from one individual in one small “tradition” of Christendom is exactly why there must be an infallible, final say in matters of faith and morals. SpiritualSon is simply making himself (or his tradition) this final authority as regards the nature of the Trinity and the divine being. The question to be asked of SpiritualSon therefore, is the same question which is asked of all Protestants:

Namely, why should anyone listen to you or your tradition for the final answers regarding matters of faith? Wherefrom do you derive your authority? Because you are without any doubt claiming final authority here, whether implicitly or explicitly.


#17

**

[quote=Shibboleth]I think you misunderstand what “faith alone” means. I know that other religions that have since split off from the Lutheran movement have taken it in a bit different direction but the Lutheran view is this and it coincides with the Catholic view on all but a few details.
[/quote]

Faith and works are a product of God’s Grace, we as humans cannot do any merits that help in our assurance towards salvation. So is faith without works nothing? Absolutely and works without faith is nothing. As conduits of God’s Grace we will inevitably bear good fruit, if you are not the bearer of good fruit you need to ask yourself why.**

**No one enters heaven by mercy alone . Many believe that the Lord hands grace down on a silver platter without any effort their part. **
**
[font=Arial]Those who have not been instructed about heaven and the way to heaven, and about the life of heaven with man, suppose that being received into heaven is a mere matter of mercy, which is granted to those who have faith, and for whom the Lord intercedes.


That it is an admission from mere grace.Consequently, that all men without exception might be saved if the Lord so pleased, and some even believe that all in hell might be so saved.


** But those know nothing about man, that he is just such as his life is, and that his life is such as his love is, both as to the interiors pertaining to his will and understanding and as to the exteriors pertaining to his body.His bodily form is merely the external form in which the interiors exhibit themselves in effect. **Consequently, that the entire man is his own love. Nor do they know that the body lives not from itself, but from its spirit, and that a man’s spirit is his essential affection, and his spiritual body is nothing else than his affection in human form, such a form it appears after death. An angel if good. A devil if evil


**So long as man remains ignorant of these things he may be induced to believe that salvation is nothing but Divine good pleasure, which is called mercy and grace. **


**Harry

**

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#18

Namely, why should anyone listen to you or your tradition for the final answers regarding matters of faith? Wherefrom do you derive your authority? Because you are without any doubt claiming final authority here, whether implicitly or explicitly.

**Authority to preach and do miracles is given to those who believe that Our Lord Jesus Christ to be the only God of heaven and earth,and live according to His Commandments. **

**Tell John the things which ye do hear and see: the blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead rise again, and the poor hear the gospel (Matt.11:3-5). **

All the Lord’s miracles, which were Divine because they signified the various states of those with whom the church was to be set up anew by the Lord through the Apostles. **
**
[font=Arial]When the blind received sight, it signified that they who had been in ignorance of truth should receive intelligence.[/font]
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****[font=Arial]When the deaf received hearing, it signified that they who had previously heard nothing about the Lord and the Word should hearken and obey.[/font]
****[font=Arial][/font]
****[font=Arial]When the dead were raised, it signified that they who otherwise would spiritually perish would become living; and so on. [/font]
****[font=Arial][/font]
****[font=Arial]Harry
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#19

[quote=SpiritualSon] Authority to preach and do miracles is given to those who believe that Our Lord Jesus Christ to be the only God of heaven and earth,and live according to His Commandments.
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Again, says who? I’m dying to hear of where your authority comes from. Before you or anyone in your Christian tradition can go around telling the whole Church, which has believed in the Trinity for an incredibly long time, what is the “truth” of the matter, you are going to have to present the world with some very good reasons for believing that you and your particular tradition are the ones who can infallibly declare the truth regarding things like the nature of God. You’re not answering the all important and prior question regarding authority. What makes you or your tradition the final authorities on the nature of God as regards the Trinitarian dogma (or on any other dogma)?

Until you address this head-on, I see no reason why anyone should be listening to you or your church. The Catholic has very good reasons for believing in the infallibility of his Church. What are your good reasons for believing in the authority of your own tradition?


#20

Back to the original reason for the thread:

but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father." (John 10:38)

Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me; or else believe me for the sake of the works themselves. (John 14:10-11)

Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” (John 8:58)

But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. (John 14:26)

But when the Counselor comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness to me; (John 15:26)

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19)

Let’s see, Jesus talks about God our Father, he says he is God by stating “I AM” and says he will send the Holy Spirit from the Father then sums it up in the command to baptize. Sounds like the Holy Trinity to me.

In Christ,
Hans


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