The truth about the fall of the Roman Empire... Are we on the same road?


#21

Again I didn’t read the previous posts but the answer is YES!!!
Mike


#22

[quote=gypsyfamily]When I was in college I took a class that explained the fall the of Roman Empire. This will be short! (I promise). Besides all the gluttoney, killing of humans in an arena for sport, promiscuity among heterosexuals I was taught that the BIGGEST reason for the fall was…HOMOSEXUALITY!! …
[/quote]

errr…no

Rome fell* for a variety of reasons including a moribund economy, a flawed political system, climatic changes, and an inability to control its own boarders. (killing in the arena had been outlawed by Constantine in the early 4th century…well before the fall)

While Gibbon may have attributed the fall of Rome to a decline in civic virtues he also implicated Christianity (ignoring of course the more Christian Eastern Empire that lasted a millennium longer than the western) As for homosexuality……while in might have had more acceptance in ancient Greco-Roman culture, by late antiquity with the adoption of Christianity as the State religion and the extension of Citizenship to vast numbers of non-Latins who didn’t share that culture, I fail to see how (even at its greatest influence) could have played a significant rule in the fall.

Are you suggesting that perhaps the Legions became girly men? This was a college level course you took? May I ask what school?

  • since there are large areas of the world the practice Roman civil law, speak a romance language, have a legislative body called a Senate that meets in a Capitol, use the eagle as a symbol, and/or belong to the Roman Church it is pretty clear that Rome is still with us so “evolved” is probably a better term than “fell”

#23

[quote=Steve Andersen]errr…no

Rome fell* for a variety of reasons including a moribund economy, a flawed political system, climatic changes, and an inability to control its own boarders. (killing in the arena had been outlawed by Constantine in the early 4th century…well before the fall)

While Gibbon may have attributed the fall of Rome to a decline in civic virtues he also implicated Christianity (ignoring of course the more Christian Eastern Empire that lasted a millennium longer than the Western) As for homosexuality……while in might have had more acceptance in ancient Greco-Roman culture, by late antiquity with the adoption of Christianity as the State religion and the extension of Citizenship to vast numbers of non-Latins who didn’t share that culture, I fail to see how (even at its greatest influence) could have played a significant rule in the fall.

Are you suggesting that perhaps the Legions became girly men? This was a college level course you took? May I ask what school?

  • since there are large areas of the world the practice Roman civil law, speak a romance language, have a legislative body called a Senate that meets in a Capitol, use the eagle as a symbol, and/or belong to the Roman Church it is pretty clear that Rome is still with us so “evolved” is probably a better term than “fell” .
    [/quote]

#24

[quote=YinYangMom]For such a history buff, how can you not relate to the African American or the Mexican American? Africans didn’t come to the U.S. of their own accord. That was the U.S. businessman’s doing, just as the oppression of the blacks after their liberation from slavery falls on the U.S. government, so don’t blame them for the high crime rate and poverty they ‘bring’ to your neighborhood.
[/quote]

I also cannot relate to ‘cowboys’ or to the South. See that is one of the problems. My relatives immigrated to America in the 1900s from Ireland. We have nothing to do with the history of American slavery, or the American war with Mexico in 1854, or the oppressive government policies towards blacks. In fact, the Irish were and still are being oppressed in this country, first with NINA (No Irish Need Apply) and now with forced busing.

Oh, and by the way, please don’t call me ‘white’, I hate that label and its as racist as can be, to call an Irish American ‘white’ is very offensive. White is as offensive as ‘Paddy’, calling an Irishman ‘Paddy’ is like calling an Afro-American Ni####. So please tell Americans not to call Irish-Americans either White or Paddy.

So how do Irish Americans relate to other non-Irish Catholic Americans? The same situation occured in the later Roman empire when they had German ‘barbarian’ Generals and Emporers. All of a sudden key offices were being held by non-Italian Romans. Emporer Theodoric was German.

Rome lost its national character and dissolved as a cohesive political entity due to unchecked immigration, 2nd class citizens getting equal rights, and the aristocracy or ruling elite become complacent. In my opinion, the same is happening to the USA.


#25

[quote=severinus]Not my area of expertise, but I could not let this go without a comment.

The record of the US in dealing with African-American poverty and disadvantage has been abysmal. I love this country, but our treatment of Blacks has not helped them one bit. The abandonment of southern Blacks following Reconstruction was criminal. African-American illegitimacy rates, once lower than those of the rest of the population, have skyrocketed in the past fifty years. Black fathers have been removed from their place in the family by a misguided welfare system. All this while we are pouring billions of dollars into Great Society programs. Throwing money at Black communities does not work; it perpetuates dependence and the break-up of families.

Most of us do not seem to care about Black-on-Black crime unless it spills into our neighborhoods. And have we reached out to African-Americans to welcome them into the Church?

If we start quoting statistics on African-American crime, we also have to look at its causes.
[/quote]

My relatives immigrated here from Ireland in 1900, the history of Afro-Americans before 1900 has nothing to do with me. There is no collective guilt in America, unless you want to feel guilty for anti-Irish Catholic oppression here in Boston and other East Coast cities (No Irish Need Apply, the No-Nothing Party, the burning of the Ursuline Convent in Boston).


#26

If we start quoting statistics on African-American crime, we also have to look at its causes.

Any deterministic explanations of human behaviour is fallacious. All ethnic groups, whether Afro-American, Italian-American, Lithuanian-American, Polish-American, or my ethnic group, Irish-American have all experienced oppression here in the States. Afro-Americans are no different, and there is no collective guilt since my relatives did not bring a black slave with them when they legally entered this country in 1900. So you have no argument.


#27

Good to know, thanks. I wasn’t aware of that before, not that I’ve crossed paths with Irish Americans much, nor have we spoken about race relations. But if that should happen in the future I appreciate the head’s up.

So, are you suggesting the fall of the Roman Empire is rooted in the open immigration policies?

And that the U.S. is headed in the same direction for the same reason?

If so, wouldn’t you and your family be part of that reason as much as me and mine?

Is that saying we are the reason the U.S. is falling apart?


#28

[quote=Bobby A. Greene]Any deterministic explanations of human behaviour is fallacious. All ethnic groups, whether Afro-American, Italian-American, Lithuanian-American, Polish-American, or my ethnic group, Irish-American have all experienced oppression here in the States. Afro-Americans are no different, and there is no collective guilt since my relatives did not bring a black slave with them when they legally entered this country in 1900. So you have no argument.
[/quote]

  1. I do not believe I said anything about slavery in my post.
  2. “Afro-Americans” are no different? They are, with Native Americans, the only ethnic groups in America who suffered widespread, long-term, institutionalized, legalized oppression. Have you heard of Jim Crow? The treatment of Irish, Italians, etc., has been pretty bad at times in America, but to claim no difference between the bad treatment of Catholics and the bad treatment of African-Americans is bizarre.
  3. In any event, the bulk of my post was devoted to what has happened to Blacks in the past fifty years, not what happened one hundred years ago.
  4. Methinks thou dost protest too much about “collective guilt.” I did not impute any such thing to anybody. My point, as can be seen by reading my post, is that whatever the causes of the situation of disadvantaged African-Americans, the current welfare system is not helping. Well-meaning people running well-meaning programs is nice, but it clearly is not working. All Americans have a responsibility to fix that; it is our government and our money.

#29

[quote=gypsyfamily]When I was in college I took a class that explained the fall the of Roman Empire. This will be short! (I promise). Besides all the gluttoney, killing of humans in an arena for sport, promiscuity among heterosexuals I was taught that the BIGGEST reason for the fall was…HOMOSEXUALITY!! Homosexuality was considered the normal acceptable way of life at the end. It lead to confusion lack of law and order as there was no order in their own lives except in the Christian Underground.

SOMEONE PLEASE RESEARCH THIS AND GET IT OUT THERE. I am not eloquent enough to do it.

George Weigel, Pope Benidict XVI, Scott Hahn, Dr. and Lisa Popcheck(forgive the spelling if it’s wrong), Drew Mariani where are you!?!?!?!
[/quote]

It has been done recently. I read an article in a magazine regarding this and will try to locate it. The bottom line is that the leadership of the time (Nero and others) could not be satisfied with normal lust and power fufillment and so they engaged in more and more homosexual relations and called them “marriages” with weddings and all. Society, seeing this “normalized” followed suit.

The author believes that the country is ripe for such a homosexual leader to do the same here and the uncontrollable (which is now somewhat controllable) slid will begin.


#30

That is what we are doing. We are saying that those living in rejection of Christ and His Church have caused serious and sometimes fatal damages to civilizations, just as we are seeing in our very own. Such damage leads more and more people away from the Truth in Jesus Christ, damaging their physical bodies and minds, and jeopardizing their souls.


#31

[quote=severinus]1. I do not believe I said anything about slavery in my post.
[/quote]

You didn’t. I just headed you off at the pass. Any discussions regarding Afro-Americans in this country seems to degenerate into the slavery which ended 140 years ago. The Commonwealth of Massachusetts ended slavery in 1755.

  1. “Afro-Americans” are no different? They are, with Native Americans, the only ethnic groups in America who suffered widespread, long-term, institutionalized, legalized oppression. Have you heard of Jim Crow? The treatment of Irish, Italians, etc., has been pretty bad at times in America, but to claim no difference between the bad treatment of Catholics and the bad treatment of African-Americans is bizarre.

There exists institutionalized racism against caucasian ethnic groups, just look at the color-coding ‘white’ as one example. I am of Irish Catholic decent, and I’m not white! We’ve been screaming that in Boston for the past thirty years.
Jim Crow? That is a Southern phenomenon, it never existed in Boston. Boston never had segregation against the Afro-American in the past fifty years, but it did have segregation against Italians, Polish, Irish, Lithuanians, Estonians, Latvians, in the form of Forced Busing (which is still going on to this day).

  1. In any event, the bulk of my post was devoted to what has happened to Blacks in the past fifty years, not what happened one hundred years ago.

There is still a lot of descrimination against caucasian ethnics. I just recently did not get hired at a major university just outside of Boston because of Affirmative Action, those racists called me white and wouldn’t hire me! :mad: Yet they hire yellow people?

  1. Methinks thou dost protest too much about “collective guilt.” I did not impute any such thing to anybody. My point, as can be seen by reading my post, is that whatever the causes of the situation of disadvantaged African-Americans, the current welfare system is not helping. Well-meaning people running well-meaning programs is nice, but it clearly is not working. All Americans have a responsibility to fix that; it is our government and our money.

I’ve heard of ‘collective guilt’ emanating out of the supreme court as well as punishing the innocent to atone for the guilty in the form of monetary compensation for slavery - not with my tax money, me and my own had nothing to do with slavery or Indian reservations or massacres in this free democratic country of ours.

If I can’t stop forced busing in my own neighborhood, what can I do against a racist federal government who calls me white, won’t hire me because of skin color, and has pushed forced busing down my throat for the past thirty years?

Just like ancient Rome, the American citizen has lost control of his own government.


#32

[quote=Bobby A. Greene]You didn’t. I just headed you off at the pass. Any discussions regarding Afro-Americans in this country seems to degenerate into the slavery which ended 140 years ago. The Commonwealth of Massachusetts ended slavery in 1755.

There exists institutionalized racism against caucasian ethnic groups, just look at the color-coding ‘white’ as one example. I am of Irish Catholic decent, and I’m not white! We’ve been screaming that in Boston for the past thirty years.
Jim Crow? That is a Southern phenomenon, it never existed in Boston. Boston never had segregation against the Afro-American in the past fifty years, but it did have segregation against Italians, Polish, Irish, Lithuanians, Estonians, Latvians, in the form of Forced Busing (which is still going on to this day).

There is still a lot of descrimination against caucasian ethnics. I just recently did not get hired at a major university just outside of Boston because of Affirmative Action, those racists called me white and wouldn’t hire me! :mad: Yet they hire yellow people?

I’ve heard of ‘collective guilt’ emanating out of the supreme court as well as punishing the innocent to atone for the guilty in the form of monetary compensation for slavery - not with my tax money, me and my own had nothing to do with slavery or Indian reservations or massacres in this free democratic country of ours.

If I can’t stop forced busing in my own neighborhood, what can I do against a racist federal government who calls me white, won’t hire me because of skin color, and has pushed forced busing down my throat for the past thirty years?

Just like ancient Rome, the American citizen has lost control of his own government.
[/quote]

Boy…someone’s bitter… :frowning:

Who, may I ask is the American citizen who has lost control of his own government?

You, An irish American born in this country?
Me, an hispanic American born in this country?
Lashandra, an african american born in this country?
Katie, a japanese american born in this country?
The list goes on…

And if they’ve lost control because of the immigration policy, why would you include yourself in the category of THE American who has lost control? Seems to me you and I would be part of the problem, not the victim.

Our country was established by a mix of other cultures, heritages. What made them American was the fact that they fought to establish this nation…so I suppose one could say anyone from the line of people here from 1776 on would be “REAL” United States of Americans. Since your family came in the 1900s then your family would be included as part of the problem.

Mine, on the other hand cannot…as my ancestors on the native american side were already here long before 1776, and on the Mexican side, again, they were already on that land as Mexicans long before the USA took it away from them.

I fail to understand how people can claim the very foundation under which this great Nation was founded can also be the source of its downfall. Immigration is not the problem.


#33

YES. The list goes on and contributes to the lack of assimilation and a common identity.

The lack of a common identity is what unchecked immigration brings about, as ancient Rome found out the hard way. But immigration isn’t the only factor, so too is a lax leadership and the common franchise.

Rome also found out that the Rule of Law is not a unifying concept. Ethnic groups are not rallied by the Rule of Law.

So how do I, an Irish American from the North East, relate to the Cowboys of the midwest? I don’t identify myself as an American with the cowboy, or with the Southern plantation, or with the left coast. So America is experiencing an identity crisis similar as to what ancient Rome went through during the latter part of her existance, circa 350 to 450 A.D.

Similar to ancient Rome, America has become a polyglot nation of lawyers, engineers, and soldiers with a multitude of religions to choose.


#34

Might I suggest people get Dr. Scott Hahn’s CD series on “Developing a Catholic World View.” It’s quite educational.


#35

Not the only policy. Open immigration was one of three internal policies which led to the demise of the Roman Empire. Rome lost its nationalism, it ceased to be a cohesive and homogeneous political unity.

Open immigration, allowing the barbarians to become Roman citizens, coupled with a lax and apathetic aristocratic leadership and equal rights for all caused the Roman empire to decay from within and fade away.


#36

Just a historical note - The Roman Empire lasted until 1453, when the Ottoman Turks took Constantinople.


#37

[quote=LCMS_No_More]Ancient Rome and contemporary America are very similar. Both demonstrate extreme arrogance and the notion that they are the only true measure of good in the world. As someone once misquoted: “Pride goeth before a fall.”
[/quote]

Rome existed for a thousand or so years thinking they were the true measure of good in the world. How was their attitude shortly before the fall in the West in the 5th Century any different then their attitude in the early Republic?

I don’t think that was the cause of their fall.


#38

[quote=Philip P]Just a historical note - The Roman Empire lasted until 1453, when the Ottoman Turks took Constantinople.
[/quote]

No, that’s revisionist history. Byzantium lasted until then. Rome existed from ~320 B.C. until ~450-476 A.D. At least this is what I was taught and is what I still teach in some of my history courses. Rome fell circa 4th & 5th centuries under pressure from the Germanic invasions, economic decline, and internal unrest.


#39

[quote=Philip P]Just a historical note - The Roman Empire lasted until 1453, when the Ottoman Turks took Constantinople.
[/quote]

Well, yes and no. They weren’t really “Roman” any more than America was “British” in the 18th century. In fact, particularly during the crusades, Byzantium had shared an enmity with the “latins” during the Crusades.


#40

[quote=mike182d]Well, yes and no. They weren’t really “Roman” any more than America was “British” in the 18th century. In fact, particularly during the crusades, Byzantium had shared an enmity with the “latins” during the Crusades.
[/quote]

America was a British colony until 1789.


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