The validity of other churches

OK, I posed this question in “ask an apologist”, and now I can’t even view it myself because I am “not authorized”. I must have really hit a nerve…
:confused: How can the Polish National Catholic Church claim to be “recognized world-wide as part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, but not under the auspices of the pope”? :confused:

Isn’t it a contradiction to claim to be part of something, but not to be governed by its leadership? Or am I just being cynical?

The Eastern Orthodox Church is considered to be in line with the Catholic Church and their Eucharistic celebrations are valid, however, they don’t recognize the leadership of the Pope.

That doesn’t really answer your question, but it might add one more piece to the puzzle.

I thought it was the Byzantines not the Eastern Orthodox Masses that were valid!?

Laura

There are churches that are not in full communion with the Catholic Church, but do have valid sacraments. This is because they still have apostolic succession, such as the Coptic Orthodox Church (who’s leader, H.H. Pope Shenouda III, is the Patriarch of the see of St. Mark).

Unity with the churches within which there is found valid sacraments is something on which I think that the Church should focus its ecumenical efforts, as these are the churches closest to Home. It would also greatly strengthen the Church Universal in places where there is often persecution.

Only the Church itself has the power to recognize any particular church or ecclesial body as being in communion or not, so we need to be careful, and make sure that we do not make any assumptions.

God bless,

Agricola

Thank you, Agricola, for the informative response. It is intriguing enough to cause me to reword my question;
DOES the Roman Catholic Church recognize the Polish National Catholic Church as part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, AND condone their ignoring the Pope?
Please note- this is a Two-part question, I really want to know if Both parts are true or not…thanks.

I didn’t think so.

I think one definition of Church used by the Catholic Church is a religious body under a valid Bishop. This is for instance why the Catholic Church refers to Orthodox Churches but not protestant churches, instead the Catholic Church refers to our “separated bretheren” in cases where there is not a valid episcopate.

It was the solemn teaching of the Catholic magisterium for 2,000 years that a) particular churches are local churches which ARE in communion with Rome, and only those in communion with Rome.
b) true particular churches are part of the Church of Christ. and
c) The Church of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church (and the eastern rites of the Catholic Church) are ONE and the SAME thing. In other words, you are not a particular church if you are not in communion with Rome and thus you are not part of the Church of Christ and therefore not part at all of the Catholic Church.

Recently, however, a new ecclesiology has been introduced and it certainly APPEARS to contradict the historic teaching by asserting that the schismatic Orthodox churches are also true particular Churches since they have valid bishops and a valid Eucharist (cf. Dominus Iesus #17). Personally, I don’t see HOW a new insight can validly contradict the historic magisterium.

Love,
Jaypeeto3

[quote=Fashina86]I thought it was the Byzantines not the Eastern Orthodox Masses that were valid!?

Laura
[/quote]

Laura,

There are Byzantines who are Eastern Orthodox and Byzantines who are Eastern Catholic. They get their name from the previous name of Istanbul which was Constantinople (New Rome or Nova Roma), which was called Byzantium when it was part of the Greek empire.

The Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgies are valid, but not licit. The Byzantine Catholic Divine Liturgies are valid and licit.

God bless,

:eek: Did Pope Paul REALLY say that?..Because (I think) so have I…lol

I could be wrong here, but here is how I understand it:

Latin rite Churches not in communion with the pope are illicit because, in addition, they have no faculties to celebrate the Mass. The Bishops of those Churches have no valid diocese and the priests do not have valid faculties either, so they are in a separate category because the Eastern Orthodox Churches do not rely upon the Pope for their jurisdiction. They are proper Churches because of this, I think. The problem is that they have broken unity with the Patriarch of Rome.
Latin rite schismatic Churches do rely on the pope for their jurisdiction, so i think this puts them in a bit of a different category canonically.

However, I’m not 100% sure on this so someone can correct me if i am wrong.

I think the best way to describe it is in the form of a map. The Catholic Church has the most detailed map with the best instructions.

All oothers have maps that are less descriptive/helpful to sme degre or another.

So we might say that if I follow the Catholic map my path should be more clear and hence ultimately salvation more likely.

Those who do not have a map as clear as that of Catholicism just have more opportunity to get lost along the way.

We know that Romans says that those who are gentiles etc who follow the law written on their hearts can achieve salvation, so therefor those who follow Christ to varyng degrees must also be able to achieve salvation

Father Damien of the lepers If my memory is correct, puts it this way(roundabout) As a catholic I know I can be saved, as for others I do not know.

[quote=Lyn&Jff]OK, I posed this question in “ask an apologist”, and now I can’t even view it myself because I am “not authorized”. I must have really hit a nerve…
[/quote]

Probably not. The reason you aren’t authorized to view it is most likely because it has not been answered. Since it is completely moderated, once you submit the question is goes into some twilight zone until they choose to answer it. Maybe this thread will help you understand how that board works.

As for your question about the Polish National Catholics, maybe this thread and this one will help.

OK, Lots of good stuff coming out now. But my question remains unanswered. **Does the Roman Catholic Church ** recognize the PNCC as “part of” the Holy Apostolic Church, AND does it condone their ignoring the Pope?
I’m not asking about Orthodox, Byzantine, or any other “schizm” (I don’t even know what that means :confused: ), I just want to know for sure whether or not this PNCC is “recognized world-wide as part of the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, but not under the auspices of the pope” as they claim.
And, by the way, the poll is going about how I expected it would…thank you everyone who votes :thumbsup: .

[quote=Lyn&jff] I’m not asking about Orthodox, Byzantine, or any other “schizm” (I don’t even know what that means :confused: ), I just want to know for sure whether or not this PNCC is “recognized world-wide as part of the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, but not under the auspices of the pope” as they claim.
[/quote]

The PNCC is in schizm, so therefore are not part of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. They do have valid orders and sacraments, so what needs to be done is recognize the authority of the pope, IMHO. :thumbsup:

Kotton

[quote=Lyn&jff]**Does the Roman Catholic Church ** recognize the PNCC as “part of” the Holy Apostolic Church, AND does it condone their ignoring the Pope?
… I just want to know for sure whether or not this PNCC is “recognized world-wide as part of the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, but not under the auspices of the pope” as they claim.
[/quote]

Lyn & jff

Can you please provide a source for the quoted text about which you ask - it would make it much easier to respond to your query if I could see the context in which the statement appears.

Many years,

Neil

The only place I have seen this text is in the weekly bulletin the pastor of the local PNCC creates on his PC every week. I don’t know it this is allowed, but I would scan and post it if someone says it’s ok to. The context is an overview of the church and the mass, directed at visitors.
I searched pncc dot org and didn’t find it.

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