The Vatican II changes in Liturgy

And pray: “MY LORD AND MY GOD!” softly to gain a partial indulgence.

And at the elevation of the chalice:

“Be mindful, O Lord, of Thy creature, whom Thou hast redeemed by Thy Precious Blood.”

Also partial indulgence.

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What is your cathedral?

Holy Rosary, Vancouver. The altar rail is also used… at all four daily Masses and all seven Sunday Masses.

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Nowadays you can do organ music on a synthesizer. God bless technology.

That the laity were often seen praying the Rosary during Mass was due to the inability to follow the Mass has been stated so frequently that one would believe it’s true. But that is not the case.

Who among us would have the nerve to tap Saint John Paul II on the shoulder as he prayed the rosary during Masses he was too ill to pray, and tell him he should know better ? And those times he was seen doing so were during OF Masses.

The laity praying the rosary during Mass has never been discouraged by any Pope that I can find. In fact, at least two promoted it.

Here is a good article explaining why the practice was, and remains, acceptable.

From a 15th century prayer book…

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You must be kidding. I must be misunderstanding you. Surely you are not saying that your organists give away free lessons?

Unless your musicians are independently wealthy, how do they make a living?!

No, I don’t believe this. The various musicians’ guilds are very strong, and they do not appreciate when musicians undermine their efforts to make a living from their trade. That musician will, in all likelihood, be blacklisted and unable to find any other work in their area.

I’m not a union supporter, but I think it’s important to support fellow professionals and I believe that people should be PAID for their work. And playing the organ in church IS WORK! It is not a spiritual exercise. I don’t accept a salary for playing at my parish, but I do expect to be paid when I sub at other parishes in my city. And I most certainly accept payment for playing in Protestant churches or in secular settings.

Priests are paid for their work–not necessarily in a salary, but in goods and services. Why should an organist be expected to give away the skills that cost him/her tens of thousands of dollars to acquire and maintain?

Uh UH! Nope.

And maintaining a pipe organ is also an expensive task. Very expensive. I disagree that it is for anyone who would like to learn and play it. I think that a parish has every right to vet those who ask permission to practice on the parish pipe organ (or electric organ, or even piano, for that matter) and make sure that they possess the maturity to correctly use the instrument. OUR parish organ has been damaged several time by unknown people who have done such things as erased all the settings or changed the settings (very unpleasant for all if the organist is not aware of the loss until they actually sit down to play!).

I’m going to assume that I misunderstand what you are telling us.

I think this discussion would be off topic

I think this discussion would be off topic

Really? Off topic?

You say that people give away their organ music to the Cathedral? And you (or others) wonder why there are not enough organists! Would YOU spend tens of thousands of dollars to train for a profession that didn’t pay any wages? Would you as a parent spend tens of thousands of dollars so that your children could learn to play the pipe organ knowing that they will not receive any wages from so doing?

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I agree @Peeps, this is part of this topic of VII and changes to the Mass.

My diocese, about 10 years ago, renovated our Cathedral. We had a new pipe organ made specifically for the space. It cost well over $1.5 million dollars. We have the builder come in once a year ( a huge expense, BTW) to make sure it is tuned and everything is working properly. No one and I mean NO ONE, other than the music director, the few organists who play for us and the builder are allowed to even touch it. The keyboard was built with a special locking cover to prevent anyone from just coming and banging on keys.
I live in a city with a world-renowned school of music with an organ performance major. We pay a small stipend to the students who share their time and talent to play at Mass. They also have time to come and play on our organ and give recitals a few times year, and even the students are far and few between.

When it comes to music, the Catholic Church really needs to stop relying on amateurs if it wants professional quality music on an instrument that is not that common anymore.

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I grew up in the 1950’s and saw people praying the Rosary during Mass

To deny this is a tap dance around reality in order to attack the Vatican II changes.

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And it is one of the reasons for the Constitution on Sacred Liturgy.
Full, active, participation in the liturgy does not include private devotions.

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Exactly, praying the rosary was not because people could not follow the Mass.

CradleRC58 did not say it didn’t happen. It absolutely did happen and some still pray the rosary during Mass, though mostly in the TLM but the reason why it happened and still happens is not because they did not understand the Mass. They probably understood it better than many do today.

While it is true that the Constitution on Sacred Liturgy is asking for full, active, participation, in the past people praying the rosary during Mass was not because they could not understand the Mass or were not participating.

Prior to Vatican II Catholics focused more on the “sacrifice” of the Mass, the Calvary of the Mass, rather than the meal of the Last Supper, so when praying the rosary they were in prayer standing with the Blessed Mother at the cross, at His death, and asking for her prayers before receiving her son. They knew, which a lot of Catholics do not know today, is that the priest was not talking to them when he prays but to God.

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But they did pray the Rosary because they didn’t follow along in the Mass due to not being able to and Latin had much to do with it. especially where the priest and altar boys mumbled the words to fast for many to follow along with their missals.

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That sounds good, but it’s a lot of malarkey.
Every single person I know who experienced the Mass prior to 1965 has told me the exact same thing-
“I never want to go back to that time!”
The priest did his thing, the people in the pews did theirs. Some prayed the rosary, some read devotionals, some just sat there. The men usually hung outside smoking, just waiting to hear the bells.
Some may have had the theological knowledge you are speaking of, but certainly not all, or even most.
If they did, there would have been no reason to change the Mass.

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Actually, in the early church, many declared that the horns were “so profane” (pagan) that they would never be welcome in a church service, now the most venerated instrument (save the human voice) in the church is the pipe organ. What is a pipe organ? It’s a bunch of horns strapped together with a bellows driving it instead of a pair of lungs.

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Hmm. I wonder if the martyrs and saints of the past that said it was the most beautiful thing they ever experienced and who gave us so much wisdom in their writings and became doctors of the Church would agree or is the feeling that its malarkey just coming from recent generations. Makes you wonder.

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My father prayed the rosary before Mass and if he wasn’t finished with it when Mass started he continued it through Mass until finished and it wasn’t because he didn’t understand the Mass, he knew all the responses and was never an altar boy. It was because he was, as so many others, extremely devoted to the Blessed Mother and was asking for her prayers.

There was a whole lot of love for our Lord throughout Church history and people were smarter than we think.

When my parents died both of their missals were very well used.

God bless. :slight_smile:

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Yes, this discussion about the organ use and organists is not about liturgical changes. Perhaps start a new thread. I am happy to discuss it there. The organ has been in place since the Cathedral was built in the 1800s, has been in constant use and its use in the Liturgy has been ongoing. The question of who uses it and how people are trained to play it, really isn’t one of liturgy, as certainly unions and music guilds are not.

@CilladeRoma I can assure you those who play the Pipe Organ and supervise its playing are not amateurs. However we must remember that music is for the Assembly, for everyone, in the Liturgy. It performs several functions,
it enacts certain rites,
it supports certain aspects of liturgy.
The function of liturgical music is a universal one, not a concert performance.

Who is ‘they’? What percentage do you claim prayed the rosary only because they ‘could not follow’ the Mass?

If you’re claiming it’s 100%, you need to back that up with facts, because there are people out there, including people our age, who did and do ‘follow the Mass’, then and now, and yet still prayed at times during a low Mass.

Full and active participation does not mean that contemplative prayer (including the rosary) might not ever be a part of Mass.

And in today’s N.O., we have people, and I can vouch on this because it is my situation, who go to Mass and do not have full and active participation, and I’ll tell you why, Jim.

It’s because our priest ad libs.

Every other person in the parishes across the US says a penitential rite (there are three listed for Sunday Mass).
We do not. We have no penitential rite and thus, no active participation. Father just talks at the start of Mass, ad lib, sometimes on fishing, sometimes on sports, sometimes on politics.

Every other US Catholic says or sings the Gloria in season, and a creed, either Nicene, Apostles, or the baptismal promises, every Sunday. We do not. In nearly 6 years at this parish, the only times I have heard either is if there is a visiting priest. Father does not say the Gloria or the Creed because he does not care to do so.

So we lack full and active participation in these two great prayers of the Mass.

We do not have full and active participation in the Eucharistic prayer because we do not hear the prayers that other Catholics in other parishes hear. We do not hear the words of consecration in the way that every other US Catholic does, so we are not joining our prayers and voices to theirs.

Every single Sunday, even though we get up, have long drawn out signs of peace (lots of peace signs flashing too), have people holding hands during the Our Father, sing the hymn sandwiches, sit, stand and kneel, we do not have full and active participation in the Mass.

ours is an extreme case, true. But the point is that in the EF, even if the participation was on a contemplative basis, even if the words were said quietly by some, even if the words were in a different language, even if some people were reading, others praying, others ‘watching’, those things were all part of the Mass and equally ‘participatory’.

With the OF, the Church decided that certain prayers always needed to be audible, certain words always needed to be said.

So the people praying the rosary at the Low Mass (EF) got to participate fully.

But the people at my OF Mass, the ones for whom supposedly having an EF would have led to them not being able to ‘hear’, or not having a clearly heard, clearly written format so that people would be able to see, hear, and participate in something at every Mass. . .don’t get to do that.

Irony alert, anybody? I would have more participation praying the Rosary at the EF (full, active) than I do going to my supposedly fully participatory Mass in X Parish in the USA, where we aren’t allowed to be doing what all the others at any other OF Mass in the US are doing.

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