The 'W" Questions?


#1

***Dear friends in Christ,

How about a fran BUT chairitable discussion on the “W’s”

Where is the Cc Wrong?

Why is the CC Wrong

What is you evidence of this position?***:slight_smile:


#2

Hi Pat. Hope you are well, my friend.

I responded to a similar question recently. My “where” is in the claim of universal jurisdiction. My “why” is that it contradicts Nicea, canon 6.

I know you, and my very good Catholics friends here, such as Nicea325, will disagree. :wink:

Jon


#3

=JonNC;9115572]Hi Pat. Hope you are well, my friend.

I responded to a similar question recently. My “where” is in the claim of universal jurisdiction. My “why” is that it contradicts Nicea, canon 6.

I know you, and my very good Catholics friends here, such as Nicea325, will disagree. :wink:

Jon

As ALWAYS Jon, I enjoy dialoging with you.:slight_smile: Even if you are wrong:D

God Bless,


#4

Where? No where.

Why? It isn't.

What is my evidence? Too much to list.

:)

It's a nice way to pad my post totals. ;)


#5

And God bless you, too, Pat.

What about when I’m right? :stuck_out_tongue:

Jon


#6

Mary. She was a sinner, saved by her son’s grace. The bible makes it clear that ALL have sinned. I’ve said it lots of times before, she is blessed, but deserves no veneration and defiantly not a co-mediatrix or co- repdeprtress status. Christ and Christ alone is our Sole mediator and redeemer. Also, hell is a real physical, unpleasesnt place. Other than, I can’t think of much else. But, that alone is what’s gonna keep me out. I’ve prayed hard about it, and the Spirit tells me these are false teachings and to avoid them.


#7

The bible makes it clear that ALL have sinned.

Including those who are mentally challenged and incapable of choice? Including infants who died in their youth? Including Christ himself? As the verse in question does not make a qualified exception for Christ.


#8

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

Jesus, as we know from reading the bible, lived a sinless life. But, mankind, however is sinful. The bible makes that clear. This is why Sacred Scripture needs to be read, and understood. It’s not a book end, it’s not a dust collector, it’s not a litgergical accesory. It is The Word of God.


#9

And God bless you, too, Pat.

What about when I'm right? :p

Jon

STILL LOVE YA BROTHER!


#10

ditto


#11

We are born in a sinful condition. Infants, the mentally handicapped…all of humanity. The wages of sin is death. Everyone dies. Otherwise, why baptize them?

Including Christ himself? As the verse in question does not make a qualified exception for Christ.

No, it doesn’t, but the rest of Scripture does. We can’t separate the parts from the whole. No exception is made for anyone else in all of Scripture.


#12

If I were to reject Catholicism for its Marian doctrines, then frankly, there would be absolutely no point in even bothering with Christianity at all. Marian doctrines such as the ones “the Spirit” is “warning you away from” have been around since the dawning of Christianity. Even Martin Luther prayed to Mary. In fact, the very fact that the Catholic Church even has Marian doctrines appealed to me in my conversion. Mary was co-mediator and co-redemptress because she humbly co-operated in God’s redemptive plan to literally do what we all must do: Willingly concieve of Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit. She is the Ark of the New Covenant. Just as the old Ark of the Covenant carried the staff of Aaron and the mana from the desert, Mary carried in her Jesus, the high priest through the rite of Aaron, and the “living bread” that came down from the heavens. It meantions the “Ark of His (God’s) Convenant” just prior to Revelations 12:2, which says, “I saw a woman clothed with the sun, the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars,” sounds like the Queen of Heaven to me… :shrug:
Not only that, in the gospel of Luke Mary says, “Behold, all generations shall call me blessed.” I don’t know many other churches other than this One who still do that.

Actually, the Bible attests that infants are innocent. In Jeremiah 19:4, most translations read “innocent children” rather than “the innocent,” but my point still remains:

“For they have forsaken me and made this a place of foreign gods; they have burned sacrifices in it to gods that neither they nor their fathers nor the kings of Judah ever knew, and they have filled this place with the blood of innocent children.”


#13

Why bother with Christianity? Simple: It’s CHRISTianity, not MARYanity. I’ve always said she’s blessed. And Rev. 12:2 is the Church, not Mary. Read the whole chapter in context.


#14

ITs pretty clear its Mary considering she gives birth to Jesus:

"She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” (Rev. 12:2-5.)


#15

Marianity… I’ll have to remember that one. :rolleyes:
Mariology is Christocentric. Everything about her points to Christ.

Why don’t fundamentalists honor their mother?


#16

Easy. She’s not our mother. She’s Jesus’ earthly mother. And to reply to MrZetterlund, Revelation speaks mostly of future events. To say that the woman is Mary and not the church is a big stretch.


#17

Actually, “Revelation” is another word for “Apocolypse.” An Apocolypse is a genre of literature that purports to be about the future but is actually about the present. They’re usually written as a sort of allegory to ensure that their writers will not be persecuted. Jesus gives the Church His mother in the gospel of John when He says, “Son, behold your mother. Mother, behold your son.” At that moment, the disciple whom He loved (or John) took Mary into his own home." When we are Baptised into Christ, we become His brothers and sisters in the New Covenant, a family more valid than flesh and blood could ever provide…


#18

batman1973, I don't see how saying it is Mary rather than the Church is a "big stretch," especially since I've never given birth to Christ and then had the devil kill thousands of children in search of mine. I think what I said was misunderstood when I said, "If I were to reject Catholicism on the basis of Marian doctrines, then I would see no reason to bother with Christianity at all." I say this because 1500 years ago, it would be unthinkable to have this debate, and thats how it was since the religion first started. Jesus gave the "keys to the kingdom" to His Church. The Church is the kingdom of heaven on earth, what we do here is bound in heaven and loosed, we are the physical means of comming to God in this world. If we err in our teachings then Christ has failed.


#19

The universal church held Mary as sinless in its earliest times…but it took 1800 years to declare her as such…so that is a long time to put thought into…

Mr. Zetterlund…you can do something about this accusation of being a Mary worshipper…look up the First Five Saturdays as reparation to the blasphemies against Mary…you can only say so much…

Hold on to your peace, let nothing disturb it…but you can do something about it…by practicing the devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary…I am trying to go back to this devotion…to make up for those who do not love her or acknowledge her true dignity…


#20

That teaching is obviously tradition, it is not, as I get reminded from Catholics,(When I bring up certian teachings) and not in the Bible. I wouldn’t go so far as to say Catholics worship Mary, I just feel IMHO that the focus needs to shift from the mother to the Son, who grants eternal life to those who believe on His name.


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