My wife told a friend she was in RCIA, her friend responded: “Don’t you know you can Pray to Jesus?” I call them well meaning, I think they are not TRUE anti Catholic as such (Jack Chick and the like) they truly never have studied the Church Catholic, like the Jesus comment, I myself have an EO type 33 bead I have reflected with, one variant, "Lord Jesus Christ , thou son of the Living God, Guide me, Bless me, and Protect me, Amen. " As well as other variants of a “Jesus Prayer” I went to Catholic School, even before becoming Catholic, I have heard Catholics …Pray…Father God…in the Name of your Blessed Son Christ Jesus. " I hear as a Catholic Prayers without invocation of Mary or Saints…really I find it less insulting than amazing they feel in 2000 years we are unaware of this and are “tipping a great secret”. You guys ever hit the well meaning (not antiCatholic) Protestant and hear a thing like this, it is as if you have a 1000 things to say and nothing…if that makes sense, you are in mind boggle…sensory overload??? So…raise your hands if ya did NOT know you could Prat to Jesus?
Who is this Jesus person? I hear that we Catholics all worship the fish god Dagon.
(Or maybe I’m just missing the anti-Catholic whoppers thread…)
Sam, the Neon Orange Knight
That made me laugh.
Unfortunalty there is a lot of misinformation about the Catholic Church out there. As a protestant who considers themselves fairly educated on the Catholic church, I cannot figure out for the life of me how these rumors persist.
I understand how the move through the rabid anti catholic crowd, but how they make their way into other groups baffles me. I also do not understand the anti Catholic sentiment either…seriously I must not be a very passionate person, because there are very few things I’m rabidly anti.
Seriously, I grew up learning the actual difference between my denomination and others in my confirmation classes, and through actually getting to know friends who were different religons. I’m all for debating the differences that are real and true, but I can’t stand the “Catholic’s worship idols”, “Catholics pray to Saints/Mary instead of Jesus”, or the ever popular “Catholic’s don’t read the Bible”. Feel free to critique a religon on it’s actual merits and doctrine, but leave the false stuff out of it.
I have found that many Anglicans/TEC members are very anti Catholic. This surprises me to some extent, although my father was against the Catholic Church, but considered himself more in line as far as worship as an Anglo Catholic or High Church.
I have just been going the rounds with a Continuing Anglican priest who has a website and he is one of the nastiest people one could come in contact with.
You cannot reason with him at all and he contradicts himself constantly.
It is a shame as many Anglicans love to say they are Catholic, however when it comes down to the wire, they reject the very Church that Christ built.
Of course not all Anglicans are anti Catholic, it is just that the venom that has come from some is a little shocking to me. Most of the comments are because of the Ordinariate offered to Anglicans who approached Rome. They just can’t accept the fact that these soon to be former Anglicans have made the decision that the Catholic Church is where they have been led by the Holy Spirit.
When I hear these types of comments, it just verifies my belief that the Catholic Church is the true Church. Yes we have some bigots, however, most Catholics are concerned when others leave and they will try to reason with them but don’t abuse the person. At least that is what I have seen as a Catholilc.
Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary
As a Catholic in Alabama, most people here are Protestant, and frankly just don’t get much exposure to Catholics or the Church much, so they don’t have much to work on to start with. However… I’ve never been to a synagogue in my life, I’ve never had any religious conversations with Jews, but I know a lot of what they believe and how they practice their faith.
In my opinion, for Protestants it must be the big elephant in the room: “we broke from the Catholic Church, we need to justify why we did that, we need to reassert that we don’t believe the Catholic Church has authority… no seriously, they don’t have authority for X, Y, and Z”.
No matter who you are, it’s pretty evident that the Catholic Church has authority. It’s doctrines and liturgies come from Rome, and are uniform in every country (at least moreso than the Southern Baptist Conference or groups of non-denominational Christians). They have a wide diversity of beliefs and practices in 1 region of 1 country. They can reach some countries with mission trips… countries which will likely have permanent Catholic Churches in them, and huge congregations (not the slim pickings from infrequent missionary visits).
And, in fairness, it should be pretty evident to anyone that Eastern Orthodoxy and Orthodox Judaism are authoritative religions. Sparing deep theological debates, having a hierarchical structure in a religion means being able to definitively know what you believe.
The Southern Baptist Conference doesn’t know what they believe… they confer and ask questions, “what do we believe about this new question?”… what do most of us think about this.
IN A NUTSHELL: The Roman Catholic Church has authority that is so evident, it requires Protestants to respond to it. One of the easiest ways to do so is by saying: well, despite the Church’s hierarchy, and uniform doctrine [CCC], among their beliefs is: praying to Mary, worshiping Saints/ idols. So, even though they appear authoritative, that’s why they aren’t.
Finally, I’ve never heard a Priest even mention Protestants in a sermon… let alone explain why their theological beliefs are inferior. Maybe… that’s because the Catholic Church doesn’t feel the need to respond to Protestants. Maybe they don’t have the same level of authority that requires a response (to keep the flock faithful/ from questioning, let’s say).
Keep in mind that many of the Anglican priests who are converting would not be doing so if the Anglican church were not departing from doctrine it has embraced in the past. The offer from Rome came only AFTER the Anglican leadership threw doctrine to the wind. It has less to do with being “led” to believe the Catholic Church is right than the fact that the Anglican leadership has made some really BAD choices about leaving the true doctrine. Basically many Anglicans are upset with the changes in their church and would like to fight back against them, the see these priest who are leaving as people who deserted rather than try and help fix the problem. The same thing is happening in the ELCA, many congregations and pastors are leaving for the LCMS or talking about breaking off into a new synod. Basically the liberal social views of some of the Leadership in both churchs is causing them to rip apart.
Also one note…just a pet peeve that sets of many protestants…many of use hold a lot in common with the Catholic Church and respect it and it’s current leadership greatly, however we find little historical or biblical backing for the current form (I am not saying it;s bad, all churches have to have a governance structure of some sort). Christ did not build a church centered in Rome lead by a pope…sorry but the structure and form of the Catholic Church is a construct of man, not Christ. He did commission Peter to build a church, but he did not ordain the structure of the Catholic Church which has evolved over time. It is very irksome to hear Catholics tell us we are “Denying the Church Christ built”, just as much as you do not like being told you don’t pray to Jesus.
Have you ever been to a High Litergical Denomination Church? The Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox, Episcapalians, and Lutheran (MS can’t speak to the ELCA) ALL have authortative structure, confessions, and beliefs. All of them have conferences of leaders, hierarchies, missionaries, world and local relief charities, and established churches thorughout the world. We don’t need to justify why we don’t subsrcibe to Rome’s authority because we have established systems of our own.
As a side note about missonaries…the church doing the most of that and expanding the quickest relatively around the world is actually the Mormons…which should embarass us all.
But hey, lump us all together and assume we are all the same…it’s kinda like uninformed Protestants asking you if you worship Mary…Fun to do, but really not accurate in the least.
I’ll concede that for a Protestant, the Bible is maybe not very clear on the Papacy. Matthew 16:18 is one of the only parts of Scripture we can point to… and maybe that’s not sufficient for you, I can understand that.
However, Scripture is very clear about what the “social views” of Christ are. The liberals in the Anglican and Lutheran Churches that you mention want to focus on being loving, kind, even accepting of people who are basically sinners. One step further… and they’re ordaining women and gays into the priesthood, because they want to be inclusive.
If you believe Christ built a Church, it can’t be one that accepts sin. 100 years ago the Anglicans and Lutherans had all male clergy, even 40 and 50 years ago they did. But, today, they have fallen to secularism and modernism, they’ve caved in to the world. Christ tells us to be strangers to the world. The idea that practicing gay sex and being a woman are compatible with the priesthood comes from the world, not the Bible.
All Protestant Churches today are offshoots, or descendant from Anglicanism, and Lutheranism. So… if you believe Christ founded a Church, and that Church cannot fall to sin or evil, the only 2 Churches that can say they uphold Matthew 16:18 would be the Catholic Churches and the Orthodox Churches.
I think my above post will prove I know a thing or 2 about Anglicans and Lutherans. I was responding to the OP. When she says “well-meaning Protestants”, and says they believe things like Catholics worship Mary and say, “do you know you can pray to Jesus?” I think Southern Baptists and Evangelicals… and I think that’s clear in my post. I mean, I specifically said the Protestants I were talking about were Alabama Protestants, who do not have a hierarchy. Lutherans/ Anglicans have almost 0 presence here.
In my post I’m saying missionary work can’t be as important as having permanent Churches. You see some Christians for a summer, or a month, or a week. Compared to going to the same Church for all your life… Southern Baptists, Evangelicals, non-denominationals, and Mormons have made VERY LITTLE progress in having actual congregations and lasting presence in other countries. Right now they by far remain solely American Churches.
For many of us “Protestants” the only “version” of Catholicism we were expossed to was either through the media…movies…boooks…TV…or family and friends who happened to be Cathlolic…and the misconceptions tend to come from them on a personal level.
My aunt joined the CC many many years ago…she wanted her children to “have a religion” and “I can still drink, smoke, dance, go to movies without the guilt. All I have to do is got to confession and I’m forgiven.”
Her children all were baptized as babies…all wore holy medals…all went to catechism…YET never fit in with the rest of the “religious family” who were a bit more conservative in behavior…
Mary and the saints seemed to be the focus instead of Jesus…any “devotion” observed was always to Mary…they seemed to view Jesus as an aloof God who was more concerned with punative retribution which was “buffered” by Mary’s compassion and intercession…she was portrayed as being more compassionate than the God who demanded the death of His Son to pay for our sins and who “wanted” to punish us when we sinned…Mary was compassionate and merciful…as were the saints…
I came to C.A. to find out what the church really believed…the beliefs I find on this forum tends to be different than the faith my Catholic relatives and friends portray.
Bah I do not worship a weak god like Dagon. I worship Crom… oh hang on Crom doesn’t want men to worship him as I recall…
They are specially fueled by the Father of Lies.
The Lutheran Church MS, and several Anglican denominations still have only male clergy, and supports almost all the same values that the Catholic Church does…save perhaps ABC. You cannot hold one synod of Lutheranism or Anglicanism responsible for the choices and decisions of another. Also remeber the old saying about people in glass houses, the Catholic Church itself has throughout history been embroiled in some pretty bad scandals…some of which actually sparked the Refromation. While they have managed to fix most of them, and it has not had a huge effect on the doctrine they preach today, it is an historical fact that protestants do not have the singular license on having people or sections of our churches fall to sin.
Also ALL protestant churches are NOT descendent from Luthernism or Anglicanism, many that trace their roots back to the reformation actually are the products of Calvin, Zwingli, or other theologians of the time. Puritans would be absolutely insulted by the insinuation that they were in any way realated to Anglicanism. As for the non denominational churchs of today they are a product of the last 100-200 years and have little to nothing in common with the High Litergical churchs of the Reformation.
To try and blame all liberal theology that is prevelant today on Lutherans and Anglicans is grasping at straws at best.
Trying to make general statements about protestants is hopeless. Well, almost hopeless. They’re all human. That’s about it for universal generalizations.
Many times the attitude they’ve inherited about catholicism is similar to the attitude WE hold about Mormonism: “Oh, yeah. I’ve heard about those guys. They invented a bunch of weird stuff totally unrelated to historic christianity much later.”
You can’t really hold it against most of them. They just don’t know what they don’t know.
What 16-posts and the jokes turned to anger which underneath is hurt. All this while we live in whats considered an abomination on earth now. The US has become satans playground. :shrug:
Do you not see how this plays right into the hand of evil, or do you not believe it exists?
The Pope is the anti-christ, thats how over the edge jokes turn to lies, then turn to belief by fools. While we laugh our way to the slaughter house. :eek:
My question being the USA is majority Protestant what are YOU doing to correct this abomination beside being worried about idol worship in the CC? Geez you’ve identified the US problem’s. The Pope, idol worship, confession, the Saints. Doctrines of Mary… wow we are on the right track
May God have Mercy on us.
Since I am a former Episcopalian I feel that I can speak more accurately on the subject than those who are not. The one going to enter the Ordinariate, except for a few, are from the Anglo Catholic tradition. They truely believed that they were Catholic and 30 years ago the Pastoral Provision/Anglican Use was established in the Catholic Church. It took much faith and sacrafice for those priests and members to leave their property, however they finally realized that the Catholic Church was the Church founded by Christ. The same for today. I know several priests who have 5-7 children who are leaving all for the Catholic Church for the same reason.
There are scandals in every denomination, but well hidden and the media could care less about them, as even the media recognizes that the Catholic Church speaks for God.
Christ also told Peter that what so ever he bound on earth would be bound in Heaven and that what so ever he loosed on earth would be loosed in Heaven. He gave Peter the Keys. That is authority and the reason for this is what you see today in the structure and beliefs regarding devotions etc. today.
I really don’t care if one belongs to another church, as long as they show some Christian charity towards others, which I have found little of in many denominations and even my former one.
As Christ told Peter that Satan would not prevail against the Church and we see Satan working to do just that. The Catholic Church is the only church that has been so severly persecuted. Yes there have been bad members, whether Bishops, priests or laity, however, I think that is how Satan enters and tries to destroy the Church from within.
As far as knowing what the Church teaches, my daugher’s father in law is a Lutheran pastor and his wife knows very little about the church. A friend also Lutheran only know that babies should be baptized. All her children have left the church for fundamentalist ones. It goes both ways.
Trying to fool us huh? We know you only worship the fish god on Fridays, especially during your spring festivals prior to worshiping a sex god who has a bunny symbol.
Not fooling me, no siree bob, I’se gots me super dupper chick tract handy!
(for those humorly challenged…I am joking…too much sugar today!)
Ach, there’s few things more funny (in a black sort of way) than a Chick tract. I’ve decided to worship the Dagda on balance or possibly Chernobog, can’t seem to settle on a particular pagan figure. Maybe Amaretsu or Horus… too many options…