Theology of tabacco and alcohol


#1

I have a evangelical friend whose church really focus’ a lot of attention on drinking and smoking. These are practically the top 2 sins that they judge people on.

I would like to hear from bible christians or non catholics about the theology of alcohol and tabacco being sinful. A biblical argument would be preferred but any argument is welcome.


#2

[quote=santaro75]I have a evangelical friend whose church really focus’ a lot of attention on drinking and smoking. These are practically the top 2 sins that they judge people on.

I would like to hear from bible christians or non catholics about the theology of alcohol and tabacco being sinful. A biblical argument would be preferred but any argument is welcome.
[/quote]

If our bodies are considered “Temples of the Holy Spirit” then we should do all in our powers not to desecrate them by over indugences, whether by food, drink or anything else.


#3

Hi all!

Well, I’m going to chime in with my orthodox Jewish $0.02.

I know that some fundamentalist Protestants have a big hang-up about alcohol and that some claim that Jesus never touched a drop of wine. If we allow that Jesus was born a Jew & lived as one (for at least part of his life, I suppose), this is impossible. The consumption of wine was part of Jewish practice then, just like it is now.

I suppose that anyone could make (unfermented) grape juice back then simply by squeezing/stomping grapes. I don’t know about preserving the unfermented) grape juice for any length of time simply because the only ways to preserve foodstuffs way back then was by pickling, salting or drying (which would make the grape juice rather yucky!).

Wine libations were an integral part of the Temple service, in the order of offerings (see Numbers 28 and 29). The Hebrew word for “its drink offering” is nisko & refers to wine, *not *grape juice. The specific reference to wine per se in Numbers 28:14 is held to be illustrative example that holds for all of the various holyday offerings enumerated in Numbers 28-29. Anyone who claims that w-i-n-e was not used in the Temple is saying the scriptural/historical equivalent of 2+2=5.

On the Nazirite’s having to abstain from wine (see Numbers 6:1-21), several of our Sages comment on the fact that at the conclusion of his vow, he had to bring (inter alia) a sin-offering. I believe that it is our very great medieval Sage, Nahmanides (ou.org/about/judaism/rabbis/ramban.htm), who says that the Nazirite had to bring a sin-offering because he had taken upon himself a vow (which Judaism frowns upon unless absolutely necessary) that entailed having to deny himself some of the good things which God has permitted us.

I think that my Roman Catholic & Eastern Orthodox cyberfriends would agree with us that wine, when properly used, can be a vehicle for holiness. When improperly used, it can be a vehicle for vile unholiness. Wine is, in effect, a kind of tool. It is neither evil nor good; only the use to which it is put and the ends to which it is used can be good or evil. (Even Milton refers to “misused wine.”) Our Sages define these uses for us & teach us where and when is wine’s place & where and when it’s place is not. The scriptures endorses neither teetotalism nor habitual drunkeness.

Be well!

ssv :wave:


#4

[quote=stillsmallvoice]Hi all!

Well, I’m going to chime in with my orthodox Jewish $0.02.

I know that some fundamentalist Protestants have a big hang-up about alcohol and that some claim that Jesus never touched a drop of wine. If we allow that Jesus was born a Jew & lived as one (for at least part of his life, I suppose), this is impossible. The consumption of wine was part of Jewish practice then, just like it is now.

I suppose that anyone could make (unfermented) grape juice back then simply by squeezing/stomping grapes. I don’t know about preserving the unfermented) grape juice for any length of time simply because the only ways to preserve foodstuffs way back then was by pickling, salting or drying (which would make the grape juice rather yucky!).

Wine libations were an integral part of the Temple service, in the order of offerings (see Numbers 28 and 29). The Hebrew word for “its drink offering” is nisko & refers to wine, *not *grape juice. The specific reference to wine per se in Numbers 28:14 is held to be illustrative example that holds for all of the various holyday offerings enumerated in Numbers 28-29. Anyone who claims that w-i-n-e was not used in the Temple is saying the scriptural/historical equivalent of 2+2=5.

On the Nazirite’s having to abstain from wine (see Numbers 6:1-21), several of our Sages comment on the fact that at the conclusion of his vow, he had to bring (inter alia) a sin-offering. I believe that it is our very great medieval Sage, Nahmanides (ou.org/about/judaism/rabbis/ramban.htm), who says that the Nazirite had to bring a sin-offering because he had taken upon himself a vow (which Judaism frowns upon unless absolutely necessary) that entailed having to deny himself some of the good things which God has permitted us.

I think that my Roman Catholic & Eastern Orthodox cyberfriends would agree with us that wine, when properly used, can be a vehicle for holiness. When improperly used, it can be a vehicle for vile unholiness. Wine is, in effect, a kind of tool. It is neither evil nor good; only the use to which it is put and the ends to which it is used can be good or evil. (Even Milton refers to “misused wine.”) Our Sages define these uses for us & teach us where and when is wine’s place & where and when it’s place is not. The scriptures endorses neither teetotalism nor habitual drunkeness.

Be well!

ssv :wave:
[/quote]

Yes I agree, and wine was a staple at the time as well because some water supplies were anything but potable. Wine has a natural content that inhibits the growth of bad bacteria as well. Wine was drank at mealtime and as we see today is a good way of aiding digestion and is also good for the blood. The consumption of any spirits is to be done in moderation of course.


#5

A book worth studying for the purpose of identifying exegetical, interpretation errors is Wine in the Bible by Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi, who claims that Jesus drank grape juice.

boldly challenges prevailing thinking and scholarship. His painstaking research compellingly shows that the Bible consistently teaches total abstinence as a divine imperative. This teaching has been obscured by many modern Bible versions which mistranslate as “temperance” or “sobriety” some of the clearest biblical admonitions to “abstinence.” A thoughtful reading of this book may well provoke a revolution in the attitude of many Christians toward alcoholic beverages.

andrews.edu/~samuele/books/wine_in_the_bible/


#6

[quote=Daniel Marsh]A book worth studying for the purpose of identifying exegetical, interpretation errors is Wine in the Bible by Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi, who claims that Jesus drank grape juice.

andrews.edu/~samuele/books/wine_in_the_bible/
[/quote]

Just for that I’m breaking out the wine.


#7

[quote=Sgt Sweaters]Just for that I’m breaking out the wine.
[/quote]

:rotfl:me too!


#8

[quote=stillsmallvoice]Hi all!

Well, I’m going to chime in with my orthodox Jewish $0.02.

I know that some fundamentalist Protestants have a big hang-up about alcohol and that some claim that Jesus never touched a drop of wine. If we allow that Jesus was born a Jew & lived as one (for at least part of his life, I suppose), this is impossible. The consumption of wine was part of Jewish practice then…
[/quote]

Thanks much for you post. it was very interesting indeed.

are there any evangelicals lookin that hold to these beliefs about tabacco and alcohol that have any scriptural or other arguments for abstinence for spiritual reasons?


#9

[quote=santaro75]I have a evangelical friend whose church really focus’ a lot of attention on drinking and smoking. These are practically the top 2 sins that they judge people on.

I would like to hear from bible christians or non catholics about the theology of alcohol and tabacco being sinful. A biblical argument would be preferred but any argument is welcome.
[/quote]

For tobacco, it says do not smoke, herb or foliage, plant or any other thing that is addictive or harmful. Alcohol I guess one must conclude that we are set aside for life for Christ and if one is drunk for one they are without self-control, not glorifying God, and often commit sin one way or another, strong influence of alcohol leads to something wrong.


#10

[quote=BryPGuy89]For tobacco, it says do not smoke, herb or foliage, plant or any other thing that is addictive or harmful.
[/quote]

I am unfamiliar with this passage. Could you please cite chapter and verse where it says not to smoke?

Thanks,
Paul


#11

As an ex-Pentecostal, I can say they believe anything that harms the body is a sin. But they draw the line somewhere, especially at breakfast time when they need to do the daily intake of Cholesterol laden Bacon and Eggs…


#12

[quote=PaulDupre]I am unfamiliar with this passage. Could you please cite chapter and verse where it says not to smoke?
[/quote]

Ditto! :confused:


#13

Here is a fundamemtalist’s understanding.

examiningthescriptures.com/alcohol.htm

He goes on to say that the wine that Christ made from water was not of the intoxificating type and this is a fact… :eek:


#14

well the fact that the pharisee called him a drunkard says something.

Also the wedding in cana…They waitor said “why is the good wine saved for last, normally you serve the good one first” or something to that effect. only someone who drinks would understand why that is.


#15

[quote=PaulDupre]I am unfamiliar with this passage. Could you please cite chapter and verse where it says not to smoke?

Thanks,
Paul
[/quote]

Well I know it is in Leviticus, were specifically I’ll have to look.


#16

[quote=BryPGuy89]Well I know it is in Leviticus, were specifically I’ll have to look.
[/quote]

Did a search on the word “smoke” and the word “herb” in Leviticus and it came up zero.


#17

Tobacco is
A filthy weed
The more you use
The more you need.
It stains your fingers,
Burns your clothes,
And makes a smokestack
Of your nose.

:smiley:


#18

[quote=Kevan]Tobacco is
A filthy weed
The more you use
The more you need.
It stains your fingers,
Burns your clothes,
And makes a smokestack
Of your nose.

:smiley:
[/quote]

Is this passage from the old testament or new?


#19

[quote=melbourne_guy]Is this passage from the old testament or new?
[/quote]

Very new!


#20

Did a search on the word “smoke” and the word “herb” in Leviticus and it came up zero.

Wow, I’m surprised that you didn’t come up with a Rastafarian site. :cool:


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