"There is no Catholicism in the Bible!"

OK, so I am dealing with supposedly a former Catholic, not sure what denomination he is now other than claiming to be Born Again and only needing Jesus. I want help with some of these things he’s saying.

The Bible was compiled by Catholics, true?

He then said “The Bible was written by Jewish people not Catholics.”

Also…

“There’s not one word of Catholicism in the Bible” :stuck_out_tongue:

“Not one word of baby baptism no baby ever was baptized in the Bible, Jesus is the only intercessor not mary, she was a sinner just like the rest of us, the pope to”

“You say that Catholics establish the church show me where it says that in the Bible”

“All the apostles not a Catholic in the bunch, they were all Jewish”

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life, no mention of Catholics and Baptists there”

From the last quote, I’m guessing he is one of these so called non denomination types…

Sounds good. Two recommendations: first, search the forums for the types of questions he asks. Second, get a good book to educate yourself. A good one would be this one:

A Biblical Defense of Catholicism
patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2006/07/books-by-dave-armstrong-biblical.html

As you can see on that page, you can purchase that book as a paperback for $24.99 or as a searchable pdf file for $1.99. It should have the answers you are looking for and it might be a great book to get for your friend, If he is willing to Read.

The Bible was compiled by Catholics, true?

Yes. The first bibles that I’m aware of were compiled in the 300s A.D. by Eusebius of Caesarea. Emperor Constantine requested them partly because the Scriptures were all in separate scrolls up to that point, and partly so that people in his capitol could read the Word of God. (His letter ordering the bibles is recorded in Eusebius’s book Life of Constantine Book 4 Chapter 36.) Not long after that, a group of Church Fathers came together at the Council of Rome in 382 A.D. to decide what books should be included in the Church’s bibles. They decided upon the 73 books that are in the Catholic Bible. (You can read the text of the Council of Rome here. The part about the books of the Bible appears in Section II.)

He then said “The Bible was written by Jewish people not Catholics.”

First, the New Testament was written by Catholics. Second, the Old Testament was Compiled by Catholics. Compiling is different from writing.

“There’s not one word of Catholicism in the Bible”

Yes there is, because the Church in the New Testament is the Catholic Church. We can tell because its description Only matches the Catholic Church and Not any other church. One way you can show this is by asking him for the name of the church he goes to. Then go to the website of his church and find out what denomination it belongs to. If it is non-denominational, find out who started it. That will be proof that it isn’t the Church Jesus started. You can do this with all non-Catholic denominations and non-denominational churches: find out who started them, go their websites, and find out who started them. Only the Catholic Church was started by Jesus.

Not one word of baby baptism no baby ever was baptized in the Bible

Infant Baptism
catholic.com/tracts/infant-baptism

Jesus is the only intercessor not mary

The Bible doesn’t say Jesus is the only intercessor. It says we are all supposed to intercede: “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men.” 1 Tim. 2:1. It follows from basic logic that Mary is an intercessor: All Christians are intercessors, 1 Tim. 2:1. Mary is a Christian. Therefore, Mary is an intercessor.

You say that Catholics establish the church show me where it says that in the Bible

Where do we say that? We say that Jesus established the Catholic Church. The Bible says that Jesus established the Church: Matthew 16:18. No other church existed in that time except the Catholic Church. Therefore, Jesus established the Catholic Church. If your friend claims that other churches existed, ask him for their names and who their bishops were.

All the apostles not a Catholic in the bunch, they were all Jewish

Why can’t they be both? Jewish by birth and Catholic by faith. Saying you can’t be Jewish and Catholic is like saying: St. Edith Stein was not a Catholic, she was a Jew!

For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life, no mention of Catholics and Baptists there

“whosoever believes in him” – that includes Catholics and Baptists. At least the ones who believe in Him.

He’s dead wrong even literally in the Greek New Testament because it says in Acts

9:31 h men oun ekklhsia kaq olhs ths ioudaias kai galilaias kai samareias eicen eirhnhn oikodomoumenh kai poreuomenh tw fobw tou kuriou kai th paraklhsei tou agiou pneumatos eplhquneto

[FONT=Georgia][size=4]Which is translated as [/size][/FONT]*[size=4][31] So the church throughout all[/size] Judea and Galilee and Sama’ria had peace and was built up; and walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit it was multiplied.

*[size=4]That [/size][size=4][FONT=Georgia]is ecclesia katholos which literally is Catholic Church. When we say that it means universal church that is by definition, “the church throughout all” the world, and so he’s wrong and the Catholic Church is indeed found in the New Testament.

He also is grossly ignorant of Christian history, so you may also want to turn him on to.
[/size][/FONT]The Eucharist IS Scriptural
It’s NOT in the Bible, okay?
“I Find No Sacraments In the Bible” he said.
What Was Authentic Early Christian Worship Really Like?

The OT was certainly written by our Jewish friends, but the NT was definitely penned by men who held to Catholic beliefs as some of my links above show.

Moreover, he needs to check his early church history and see where the canon of scripture came from. It certainly was not a mere 500 years ago and was not canonized by anyone who was not Catholic. Get him a copy of Where we got the Bible.

Besides…if he’s so bent on the Jews having penned the OT then why isn’t he Jewish? He’s got a disconnect there that doesn’t work logically. :shrug:

He’s also dead wrong on infant baptism and feel free to use this article of mine to help. The Case For Infant Baptism

Christ established his church on Peter right there in ***Matthew 16 [18] And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. [19] I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

***[FONT=Georgia]He’s out lunch on the apostles, since we have St. Paul clearly teaching the Eucharistic Real Presence in 1st Corinthians. [/FONT][FONT=Georgia]The Eucharist IS Scriptural

Not to mention St. James who teaches that faith without works is dead.

Jude plainly shows in his letter that he teaches from Sacred Tradition because he mentions Jannes and Jambres who are nowhere mentioned in the OT as well as rebuke of Satan by St, Michael the archangel in that same very brief letter. See [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia]Infallibility & How The Apostles Taught the Study of Sacred Tradition.

There are more, but these should get his attention.

His last point is moot since I’ve already shown that he is dead wrong in these other things. Ask him to read Matthew 25:31-46 out loud to you and then explain how that is not the Catholic theology of works of obedience being vitally important to salvation.

Feel free to print out [/FONT]My Testimony and give it to him so he can see how my journey out of his kind of deception is relevant to him.

As Catholics we don’t believe in Scripture alone. We also have Tradition and Magesterium for understood Divine Revelation.

Acts 16:15

And when she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay.” And she prevailed upon us.

Christians would have their whole family baptized when the parents(s) converted.

Goodness, where did you hear that? Judaism is a completely different faith tradition from Christianity, albeit the tree from which we (and Islam) have grown our roots. I will give you that all three Abrahamic faiths believe in the one God.

I would be quite interested in hearing what some of our Jewish friends here would say about your statement.

[LIST]
*]As Church Militant said, the word “kath holos” is the basis for the word “Catholic” and is found in Acts. The Christian community was referred to as the Catholic Church in Ignatius of Antioch’s letter of 105 AD.

*]The Christian community in Rome, according to the Early Church Fathers, was organized and taught by both Peter and Paul and was the embryonic Catholic Church. An embryo may not look like it’s grown-up version, but it is still the same creature.

*]The seven sacraments of the Catholic Church are all found in the New Testament. The hierarchy of the Church is also found in the NT: deacons, presbyters and bishops.

*]St. Luke, I have heard, was not a Jew by birth.
[/LIST]

yeah, I have a Mormon friend who says similar things

“why does your church call itself catholic? the bible never says it should be called catholic, it should have the name the bible says, it was founded by Jesus so it should be called the church of Jesus Christ”

it doesn’t matter how many times we go through this, it’s always the same circular issue. I give him all the explanations I can and in the end when he has nothing to say he just says “no, you’re wrong” plain and simple.

I don’t know if your friend is like this, hopefully not, but if he doesn’t actually want to listen and is just trying to start an argument, just because, you will not get anywhere

Both of you might benefit from Dr. Edward Sri’s excellent course, A Biblical Walk Through the Mass which actually shows the deep connections between the Mass liturgy and Judaic worship in the OT. Well worth the time!

Yep. he was a Gentile medical doctor in fact.

:rolleyes: Ask him where the word Mormon is found in the Bible, and point out that nowhere in the Bible or in Christian history is the church referred to as “Latter Day Saints” or even “the church of Jesus Christ”.

You might also ask him if he’s a “true blue” Mormon and if he says no then ask him why he bothers you with these things since he obviously doesn’t believe them enough to follow his own religion.

it doesn’t matter how many times we go through this, it’s always the same circular issue. I give him all the explanations I can and in the end when he has nothing to say he just says “no, you’re wrong” plain and simple.

The best answer at that point is the one that John Martignoni often uses. “But that’s your fallible interpretation. What makes your fallible interpretation more correct than my fallible interpretation?” They can’t make a case for that because they cannot cite an authority…not SS or Mormonism or any other n-C community because it’s just not there.

I don’t know if your friend is like this, hopefully not, but if he doesn’t actually want to listen and is just trying to start an argument, just because, you will not get anywhere.

Two good responses to that are.

  1. Let me know when you’re ready to actually listen and then follow up by doing your own homework to see if I’m right.
  2. Figuratively, dust off your shoes and walk away from them, prayerfully leaving them to the Holy Spirit.

Not just compiled by, but the NT was also written by Catholics.#[FONT=&quot]34[/FONT]

The oldest canon we are aware of is the Muratorian canon earlychristianwritings.com/text/muratorian.html

From a section of the Muratorian canon from approx 180 a.d.

“And John too, indeed, in the Apocalypse, although he writes only to seven churches, yet addresses all. He wrote, besides these, one to Philemon, and one to Titus, and two to Timothy, in simple personal affection and love indeed; but yet these are hallowed in the esteem of the Catholic Church, and in the regulation of ecclesiastical discipline. There are also in circulation one to the Laodiceans, and another to the Alexandrians, forged under the name of Paul, and addressed against the heresy of Marcion; and there are also several others which cannot be received into the Catholic Church, for it is not suitable for gall to be mingled with honey.
4. The Epistle of Jude, indeed,37 and two belonging to the above-named John-or bearing the name of John-are reckoned among the Catholic epistles. And the book of Wisdom, written by the friends of Solomon in his honour…”

[LIST]
*] As for “Catholicism” in the bible
[LIST]
*]we don’t see that word, but we see in scripture the words where “Catholic Church” comes from #[FONT=&quot]34 open up all the internal links [/FONT]
[/LIST]

*][FONT=&quot]Re: infant bap[FONT=&quot]tism,
[/FONT][/FONT]
[LIST]
*][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]see these[/FONT][/FONT] Infant Baptism ,& Infant Baptism
[/LIST]

*] [FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]The Catholic Church didn’t establish the Catholic Church. Jesus did. :)[FONT=&quot] as you can see from the references all properly referenced. Ask your friend to show his [FONT=&quot]history of his man made religion he follows and insist he shows his references all properly referenced. [/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
*][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]The apostles were Hebrews & Catholic. They were in the Church they were writing to and for. Therefore the Catholic Church was here before a single word of the NT was written.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
*][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Re: the quote he used
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[LIST]
*][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]"[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=Comic Sans MS]For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life, no mention of Catholics and Baptists there"
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
*][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]who does he think he’s lecturing to? He’s obviously in some 100% man made invented religion and he’s nervous about that and he shou[FONT=&quot]ld be nervous about that…
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[/LIST]

[/LIST]

To the OP:

You’re wasting your time. Your friend has made up his mind and no amount of facts or logic is going to make him think different. Just move on.

:smiley:

Non-denominational? Nah…more like an old school, redneck, southern Baptist, fire n brimstone bible thumper.

John 3:16, verbatim, = no need for a Church (but then, they made one themselves; actually several–and by several, I mean several thousand…);

“Born again”, and the whole “…where’s that in your Bible” tactic, are 2 other tell-tales of this particular breed of protestant.

TBL: his “arguments” do not withstand scrutiny. At all. They are paper thin, and about as strong as wet paper.

Prescription: kid gloves. Be gentle with him. Born again, fire n brimstone Bible thumpers thrive on the fight, for the sake of the fight. Tit for tat apologetics, will only prompt him to hunker down and entrench himself further in his puddle deep “biblical” theology–rather than digging deeper into the substance of the very Bible he seeks to beat you (and everyone else) over the head with.

Turn the other cheek; charity; love; Jesus’s love (see Mother Theresa for a contemporary, modern application of this); That is the antidote.

Jmho/fwiw.

The OP is trying to defend their religious beliefs, which I do believe we as Catholics are supposed to do. I am aware we are supposed to correct others when the case calls for it. CCC 1829

Oh, no argument there. But some people you just can’t reason with. :shrug:

Thanks to dmar198, Church Militant, boomerang, I used many of your links and words against this guy, needless to say it eventually came to him telling me no matter how much I say I won’t convert him, next thing he blocked me. :stuck_out_tongue:

Which really means I challenged him so much that he got scared and ran away.

I had a friend go back and check the thread out to see how it went he posted a bunch of stuff I gave him from you guys and then HE was BLOCKED!! :smiley:

So, yeah no matter how much evidence you present with some people they are so angry and anti-Catholic that they can’t see it no matter how you present it.

This guy claims to have been brought up in the Catholic church, and later on in life he was born again, when he came to realize the Bible wasn’t lining up with what Catholics were saying. :shrug:

This was not someone I know in real life, just a random encounter. I do believe we are suppose to set people straight when we run into them online especially if they are slandering the Church. This idea that we should just let them go unchecked because we won’t change their mind is silly, you can plant seeds in their minds they might not change overnight but it’s better than doing nothing and acting like a Nancy Pelosi style Catholic, eh? :rolleyes:

I find it odd that you’ve never heard this. It’s been preached in all my schools and churches since I was a child. Old Testament Judaism is the precursor and direct ancestor to Catholicism. When God revealed himself to the Israelites, he was laying the groundwork for the establishment of the Catholic Church (in line with the doctrine of “doctrinal development”). Modern Judaism, while having its roots in OT Judaism, is in fact a departure from the faith. The Jews were meant to accept the New Covenant and did not, therefore breaking continuity with the faith.

I don’t know why it would matter what our Jewish friends, including my wife and in-laws, would say about that. We of course would expect them to state that they are the true continuation of OT Judaism, wouldn’t we?

After taking a second look I see that you’re Anglican. Perhaps this is why what I said is such a shock to you. It’s what the Church teaches, although it tends to use substantially different wording.

On the contrary. See THIS, for example.

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