There should be a war...

There should be a war over abortion. 6 million Jews were killed in the 1900’s, and there was a World War over it. How many millions of babies have been killed through easily available abortion? How many mothers have lived to suffer? There was a war in this country over slavery. There should be a war. I am not advocating violence, I am advocating a just war.

Even aside from other aspects of the moral question, for a war to be just there must be a reasonable chance of success, and that does not exist in this case.

I would support a war that involves no violence.

If we bring people to common sense of what they’re really doing, they may stop with this non-sense of pro-choice. Killing a child is a crime by natural law, no matter how small the age was, and calling it “reproductive rights” is a fancy distortion of what a right actually is which, ironically, not only violates the universal right to life that the child was granted when she was conceived, but it was introduced by the Catholic Church Herself in the Middle Ages.

I can’t figure out how people can be conviced that this type of thing should be admitted anyway. Giving the child a chance in the rough enviroment of a foster home or adopted or whatever is far better than giving the kid no chance at all, the logic simply doesn’t follow and gets to a conclusion that is even worse, which is killing the baby because he’d suffer. Like, isn’t that a bit contradictory to say the least?! :shrug:

I will not make friends saying this but, if you knew for a fact that Heaven was the destination of all aborted babies’ souls, would you still say abortion is giving the kid no chance at all? If Heaven is the ultimate prize, that nothing can compare to it, that to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord, then in a twisted way, even though it displeases God, killing someone before they have an opportunity to sin, inasmuch as that secures an eternity with God in Heaven, is doing them a huge favour, it’s giving them a gift unsurpassed by any other gift. That’s the paradox of abortion, if you disobey God you WILL save souls that, statistically, were going to be damned had they been given a chance to live. God is malcontent, but a soul is saved. I know the despair, heartbreak and terror of a lost soul facing the prospect of eternal misery doesn’t faze God, so I say salvation and avoiding hell trumps everything, even if it has to be done at the expense of God’s laws. Abortion is barbaric but so were some of the things God commanded his people to carry out in the OT (smashing babies’ skulls against rocks and such).

Apparently, according to a book by Bertrand Russell, “The Spaniards in Mexico and Peru used to baptize Indian infants and then immediately dash their brains out: by this means they secured these infants went to Heaven.” Better to die as a blameless baby than as an impenitent pagan worshipping nature.

As long as Roe vs. Wade is the law of the land there is not much we can do except pray. It’s in the state’s hands now, however. In Texas there are now only seven abortion clinics due to new restrictions for the safety of the patients. It’s a start.

:signofcross:

WWII was not fought over the six million jews who died, they died in that war. Also, a just war can be violent. If you want to fight a war over abortion, take single mothers into your home and win by using weapons of love.

No, actually, that is not what WWII was fought over.

Who would fight in this just war of yours?

It is easily a grave enough matter to merit a war, but it’s not in anyway prudent to combat the evil in that sort of way, since the entire system is structured around mutual consent from beginning to end (for the most part). Two consenting people have sex, they have an unwanted pregnancy, and then a consenting woman murders her child with the help of a paid and consenting doctor, all under the sanction of a consenting government. The only party here who might cry out out in the way a Jew would is the baby itself, and yet the baby is entirely defenseless to even speak in the matter. So how can you fix this through war? Nazis can be shot and killed; their infrastructure destroyed; and their camps and tyranny ended. But you can’t do that in a situation where the evil in question is itself considered ‘controversial’ in the country, and the culprits are a ubiquitous mass of people throughout the population adhering to a sinful lifestyle that ultimately leads to abortions happening. Fighting the evil through war would be like fighting a virus with a blowtorch. The infected cells are scattered throughout the body, hard to detect and ready to spread. It is not possible. The white blood cells must do the work of fixing the problem on a micro level, one heart at a time.

“Give me an army saying the Rosary and I will conquer the world.”
Pope Blessed Pius IX

:thumbsup:

There already is a war … a spiritual one and the Rosary is the weapon we have to fight it :slight_smile:

[quote=tenderlynew]There should be a war over abortion.
[/quote]

It’s interesting to note how the epidemic of vice seems to have taken everyone’s drive to question. Who in the modern world, except you (and me), would ever think of doing something so real? I was taken by my family to pray at an abortion clinic once, taught (correctly) that the fetus is a person. But it was years until I thought of applying the principle that violence is acceptable in defence of innocent life. But the spirital epidemic had taught me never to question. I had been taught “do what you’re told”, and I did. I didn’t even consider real action until years later. It takes a real seed of virtue to consider such an action.
I agree. This is ridiculous. We all just sit around and pray, hoping God will win the war for us. It’s stupid. God works through his servants, and he doesn’t seem to have any right now. I think we should be his servants.

[quote=Aelred Minor]for a war to be just there must be a reasonable chance of success, and that does not exist in this case.
[/quote]

We fought a revolutionary war against the world’s most powerful army. We were severely outgunned and outnumbered. We had every disadvantage. Defeat was certain. But that was moral.

[quote=adawgj]I would support a war that involves no violence.
[/quote]

Abortion was legalized about 40 years ago. Since then, we’ve spent the whole time trying love, voting, writing magazine articles, and rational argument, and the situation is getting worse. PP didn’t used to get billions of taxpayer funding annually. Stuff like the “moring-after pill” didn’t used to be around. There didn’t used to be the HHS mandate.

[quote=Robertanthony]I will not make friends saying this but, if you knew for a fact that Heaven was the destination of all aborted babies’ souls, would you still say abortion is giving the kid no chance at all? If Heaven is the ultimate prize, that nothing can compare to it, that to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord, then in a twisted way, even though it displeases God, killing someone before they have an opportunity to sin, inasmuch as that secures an eternity with God in Heaven, is doing them a huge favour, it’s giving them a gift unsurpassed by any other gift. That’s the paradox of abortion, if you disobey God you WILL save souls that, statistically, were going to be damned had they been given a chance to live. God is malcontent, but a soul is saved.
[/quote]

Keep in mind that the unborn still choose their eternal destiny. You can’t send them to heaven by killing them. Also what God wants is not lack of sin, but non-lack of Virtue.

[quote=KimberlyCat]As long as Roe vs. Wade is the law of the land there is not much we can do except pray. It’s in the state’s hands now.
[/quote]

This is passivism. We can fight back. Someday, you’ll see proof when God gets his hands on some real followers who care about his will more than obeying the law.

[quote=1Ke]WWII was not fought over the six million jews who died, they died in that war. Also, a just war can be violent. If you want to fight a war over abortion, take single mothers into your home and win by using weapons of love.
[/quote]

It doesn’t matter what WW2 was about. This is about millions of babies annually. What doesn’t that trump?

[quote=1Ke]Who would fight in this just war of yours?
[/quote]

I would, tenderlynew would, and so would anyone else who is truly on God’s side without reservations.

[quote=Tk421]It is easily a grave enough matter to merit a war, but it’s not in anyway prudent to combat the evil in that sort of way, since the entire system is structured around mutual consent from beginning to end (for the most part). Two consenting people have sex, they have an unwanted pregnancy, and then a consenting woman murders her child with the help of a paid and consenting doctor, all under the sanction of a consenting government. The only party here who might cry out out in the way a Jew would is the baby itself, and yet the baby is entirely defenseless to even speak in the matter. So how can you fix this through war? Nazis can be shot and killed; their infrastructure destroyed; and their camps and tyranny ended. But you can’t do that in a situation where the evil in question is itself considered ‘controversial’ in the country, and the culprits are a ubiquitous mass of people throughout the population adhering to a sinful lifestyle that ultimately leads to abortions happening. Fighting the evil through war would be like fighting a virus with a blowtorch. The infected cells are scattered throughout the body, hard to detect and ready to spread. It is not possible. The white blood cells must do the work of fixing the problem on a micro level, one heart at a time.
[/quote]

The white blood cells aren’t working. We’ve been trying them for over 40 years.
Besides, just because all the people involved in the murder consent to it doesn’t meant we can’t fight it. Also, you can’t force people’s souls to change.

[quote=Domini cane]“Give me an army saying the Rosary and I will conquer the world.”
Pope Blessed Pius IX
[/quote]

He has hundreds of millions, if not billions, of soldiers saying the rosary and he isn’t conquering the world.

[quote=Ysara]There already is a war … a spiritual one and the Rosary is the weapon we have to fight it
[/quote]

The rosary is a prayer, not a weapon. Prayer is fantastic, I’ve seen the marvels it can work. But I’ve never seen it accomplish anything when the pray-er isn’t doing all within their power to make God’s intervention unnecessary.

tenderlynew, I strongly agree with you. I have some questions, though, about exactly what you propose:
[LIST]
*]Does this plan of action involve killing abortionists, assassinating gov officials, and all that, or does it stop at destroying abortion clinics and burning pro-abortion books and such?
*]When would it stop? What would be our victory condition? Would it be when the law is changed?
[/LIST]

There is no reason to think that the souls of aborted children go to Heaven. There is speculation that maybe it might be a possibility, but to be honest, I think that this is more based on an idea formulated to respond to a grieving mother after spontaneous miscarriage than on any theological thinking. Our *best *theological thinking leaned towards the idea of Limbo, a place where those who died with *only *original sin on their souls would not suffer pain since they had committed no personal sin.

However, this is all regarding knowledge that God has chosen not to reveal to us.

Well, I wouldn’t trust Russell as an authority, but even so, there is a difference between a baby who has been baptized and a baby who has not been baptized.

First of all, for the response of that particular quote of Russell, I’d tell you to read this.

Second, that argument is hardly valid, if at all. On the first note, most pro-choice people don’t believe in a Heaven, so their minds don’t rest easy on that point, and that’s used to who is actually trying to protect the babies. Second note, where is the confirmed claim that aborted babies go to Heaven? Last time I checked, either that or a sort of Limbo is no more than a theological theory, and that’s not to be taken for granted either.

Third note, our ultimate purpose is live here on earth as humans, not to respond to the universal call for holiness which gives us Heaven. That’s after our life here is done, and that should come when the life here is accomplished. Things here on Earth are much different than in Heaven, and it’s only after being here that you can really appreciate to go up there. Fourth, much linked to my thrid note, not even a baby can know true happiness without knowing true sadness in life, that’s just how human beings are built on.

Fifth, once again, it goes against one’s right for life. I’m not guessing you go around killing people that want to go to Heaven faster. You simply live your life as God wanted you to be in order to be clean and holy and able to enter Heaven. Any conception of a baby has the Original Sin which doesn’t even have the chance of being baptized, so you can’t really say you’re doing anything ok. Becoming holy is available to anyone that chooses to do that, and you’re not giving the baby any chance to do his own choice (yes, there are those who feel satisfied to have a short but intense life, and they’d rather not live an eternity; deal with it), and start and work on his/her relationship with God to truly know Him and being ready to meet Him. So, arguing that the baby is granted to go to Heaven is way too much of a bet. Most likely he/she’ll spend a lifetime in Purgatory to get ready to meet his/her Creator, which didn’t even had a chance to enjoy His creations by his/herself.

On the last note, and I don’t want to sound like aggressive or anything but really, how in the world do you even think of suggesting that?.. :mad:

I think the problem here is that you have not identified who you will have to fight.

The initial ones to fight may seem like the abortion clinics and abortion providers. But they are not attacking you. So hypothetically, your mode of attack would be to disarm them of their tools used to kill the babies. Once you make them surrender their “weapons”, the babies are safe.

But wait, then the government will intervene because you have taken the “weapons” away from the Clinics and Providers. You cannot really fight the state now because then there is no real just war. Your fight against the state will be based on not allowing “weapons of abortion” which is not the same as fighting to save lives. If one thinks that it is still the same, then they will be fighting a war over everything ranging from gun control laws (feels like an oxymoron :D) to tax laws. So I don’t think anyone reasonable can take that position. Then at that point when the State intervenes and ask you to give back the “weapons of abortion” what do you do? You will have to obey the government and give it back.

So fighting a war in this manner is kind of pointless.

Now some extreme person might say, lets just destroy the weapons and locations (some extremist might even say the providers). But this too is pointless because many others will take their place. The locations and weapons are not used just for abortion so it ultimately would require eliminating all hospitals which is even more pointless.

Ultimately, what you will realize is that there is no physical enemy to fight in this battle but the spiritual enemy of ignorance. You cannot fight that with a physical war. That has to be fought differently.

That is why we have 40 days of life (to inform), prayer vigils (asking God through the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary to open up the minds of others to see reason and accept the message). That is where the battle is fought and must be fought for abortion. The physical battles do not make logical sense.

Yes it does. The OP’s entire premise is based on WWII being fought on behalf of 6M Jews, and applying that to the conclusion we should fight a war about abortion because that is more than than 6M.

The moral law is not based on number or trumping anything.

I think you’ve missed my point. Just war theory is very specific. It isn’t just any people fighting taking up arms against just any other people. You fighting the police, you doing violence to an abortion doctor, that is just a street fight, not a war and certainly not a just war.

None of these would meet just war doctrine.

I was very ill when I put up this post

I got the idea from the question/answer that you linked. You know how we say that the end doesn’t justifiy the means, well concerning hell, the end (avoiding it) would certainly be a case where the end justifies the means. People make it sound like God didn’t have any other option except to “create” hell. He’s creative, smart and almighty, hell simply exists because his justice wants it. There had to be a milder, humane alternative for those who miss Heaven. No in the face of an oppressive system I naturally tend to look for loopholes as an intellectual exercise. But don’t worry I don’t have a political platform with specifics on how to implement mass post-baptism infanticide. I’m simply thinking aloud.

See, who would fight the war? All the 1st world governments with armies, are the ones who condone legal abortion. Even Muslims do it (I happen to know this.) And the Pope has no army, so, …???

Pray!!! That is the army you need!

Do also read my post explaining why we need a different type of soldier for this fight here.

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