Thief on the cross & paradise?


#21

I believe this can easily be solved by referring back to Scripture and the Lord’s usage of the phrase “Amen, Amen, I say to you.” Jesus uses the phrase repeatedly throughout the Gospels to introduce an important truth. It goes something like this:

“Amen, Amen, I say to you, [introduction] today you will be with me in Paradise [Gospel truth]”.

I will leave the homework to you to consult a concordance and check each instance of the phrase. You will note that every translator places a separator after “you” in every instance of it’s occurrence except that a biased translator will place it inconsistently after “today” in this verse solely for doctrinal reasons. The truth I believe is self evident.


#22

This is so interesting. You may be right per the technicality.

Since the thief continues to suffer even after Jesus delivers his promise … perhaps this was part of the “purging” or satisfying the justice of man the thief needed to be “clean” (for nothing unclean enters heaven, Rev 21:27).

When you mentioned Baptism (and pointed out correctly that this hadn’t been done – to/for or participated in by the thief ) … I thought of the later doctrines of Baptism of Blood and Baptism of Desire which save those whom the Church has not water Baptised (in some cases and through no fault of the otherwise “unbaptized”).

Mark 10:37 They answered him, “Grant that in your glory we may sit one at your right and the other at your left.”

38 Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you are asking. Can you drink the cup that I drink or be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?”

39 They said to him, “We can.” Jesus said to them, "The cup that I drink, you will drink, and with the baptism with which I am baptized, you will be baptized;

40 but to sit at my right or at my left is not mine to give but is for those for whom it has been prepared."

IF the baptism Jesus spoke of here was not the baptism of John he’d already received, but a **“baptism” of martyrdom **-- this becomes profound (not that it wasn’t all the while - but possibly per the thief).

… in which case the THIEF was seated at Jesus’ right hand as He went through that “baptism” and was “in His Glory!” < (Not the glory of heaven, but the glory of saving the human race from its sins through His incomparable sacrifice).

This thief, when considered, begins the day as a public criminal, and possibly to please the crowd, joins them in abusing Jesus …

Matthew 27:44 The revolutionaries who were crucified with him also kept abusing him in the same way.

Then along the way he amazingly “converts” and is promised salvation (though he continues to suffer - and is not delivered from his sentence or the cross). I post some insights I had in red regarding this scripture below

Luke:39 Now one of the criminals hanging there reviled Jesus, saying, “Are you not the Messiah? Save yourself and us.”

40 The other, however, rebuking him, said in reply, "Have you no fear of God, for you are subject to the same condemnation? He no longer taunts with the mob. He publicly calls another to think of God (and is heard by the crowd too probably).

41 And indeed, we have been condemned justly, < Publicly confesses his guilt

for the sentence we received corresponds to our crimes, Evangelizes his friend, resigns himself to undergoing justice.

but this man has done nothing criminal." < gives witness to Jesus - at a time when he was helpless and vulnerable to more torture. Bucks peer pressure. Prophecies about the Messiah.

42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Despite all the earthly evidence to the contrary and the seeming defeat of Jesus, he believes that Jesus HAS a kingdom … and is who He said He was … and ASKS (to be remembered WHEN Jesus comes into His Kingdom - no longer asking to be taken down from the cross and “saved” back into … Herod’s and Pilate’s and Caesar’s Kingdom!

43 He replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” And he RECEIVES … a promise. To come soon. Beyond just his being remembered. But to be WITH Jesus in paradise “today”. But he suffers a bit longer and then dies.

You are right Zekiraya that this was before Pentecost of course. But aspects of the New Covenant were being put in place. Jesus had already instituted the Eucharist and a “New Covenant …” at the Last Supper, and replacing the Passover Sacrifice with His body and blood and becoming the “Lamb of God” on the cross … and shortly after His final words from the cross, including “It is finished …” and “Father, into your hands I commend my spirit …”

Matt 27:50 … Jesus cried out again in a loud voice, and gave up his spirit.

51 And behold, the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked, rocks were split,

52 tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised.

53 And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many.

We are left to question what happened to these next … or the thief. We don’t know everything. *** Your posit about the thief looks pretty certain though, ***given Christ’s words and the fact that the thief had paid man’s justice, received God’s promise, and is seen to have changed almost miraculously from a criminal, God’s enemy and a man-pleaser to a humbled, yet courageous soul who repented, atoned, tried to help another with the last of his powers, sought mercy in meekness, gave witness to the evil people all around him and endured the final moments of his sentence (it seems) before “being with” Jesus that day in Paradise. :slight_smile:

:clapping::dancing::extrahappy:

:blessyou:


#23

Here is a contradiction. Only one passage has one of the two thiefs repent. Two different passages have them both taunting Jesus and not repent.

Matthew 27:44 “The bandits who were crucified with him also taunted him in the same way.”

Mark 15:32 “Those who were crucified with him also taunted him.”

Luke 23:39-43 One of the criminals who were hanged there kept deriding him and saying, “Are you not the Messiah?Save yourself and us!” But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed have been condemned justly, for we are getting what we deserve for our deeds, but this man has done nothing wrong.” Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” He replied, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”


#24

Both thieves taunted Christ. Only one thief repented and St Luke recorded this fact. The Following is only recorded in the Gospel of St John. Even though the other three writers did not record it, the following is a fact:

John 19:26-27 When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son. After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own.

If you read a news story from the accounts of multiple witnesses, you walk away with a more complete story than if you only read one witness’ account.


#25

CaptFun responds in RED

**Both taunted him. One kept taunting (had been doing it before) … the other rebuked him …

When Matthew, Mark and Luke are seen together, the story of the one thief’s conversion comes to light.

It’s not a contradiction. And usually when people see a Bible contradiction … it is really something other than that. By concluding “contradiction!” could this not be a temptation to not attend to scripture anymore? Wouldn’t we get a bit of Satanic help to conclude that via a temptation?

We risk missing out on a lot of wisdom and possibly more when we impatiently dismiss scripture as being contradictory (and hence irrelevant). **


#26

I find John 19:26-27 interesting curious for several reasons.

First of all, it never says that John was the beloved disciple.

Secondly, the New American Bible, Revised Edition (2011) translates John 19:27 thus:

Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother.” And from that hour the disciple took her into his **home. **

John lived in Galilee, three day journey from Jerusalem. So he couldn’t have taken Mary into his home within a hour. However, Lazaras lived only two miles away fro Jerusalem. In John’s gospel, Lazarus is referred to as the disciple that Jesus loved.

So is it possible that Lazarus, rather than John, was the Beloved Disciple?


#27

Please stay on topic. This is about the thief. You never addressed my post that says it is not a contradiction for a Gospel to mention something that others do not mention.


#28

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