This article on the Cristeros made me angry...


#1

Hail Mary,

Alright guys, recently, I read an article by the so called Council for Secular humanism on the cristeros; it alleged that the cristero war was proof that religious people can be fanatics and how religion should be abolished and removed so as to not make people fanatical. And that ticked me off for its sheer hypocrisy, lack of research and etcetera.

First, I’ll admit that war is hell and the Cristeros still did pretty questionable things. Some of the Cristeros, or the most ignorant of the lot would even rape and pillage. However, the government killed Catholics and Priests by the thousands, it even executed children like José Sánchez del Río and would torture people out of cruelty, not to mention the fact that the entire reason this war started was so that the Mexicans would get their religious freedom back (and not because the Church wanted to gain political power). It was more of a case of black and gray morality:"the Cristeros wanted religious freedom for themselves, the government was murderous and Calles was a complete monster.

Now, is the cristero war proof enough that religion should be abolished because of ‘fanatical’ Catholics waging a war? Ignoring the fact that the government still tortured people and killed them, and that the Cristeros only crossed the moral event horizon with the 300 teachers they killed in 1937, after Calles was exiled, does the author of that article have some kind of mental problem because he knows that many wars were waged in the name of secularism and atheism. No, I’m not talking about communist regimes seeing as how so many militant atheists don’t endorse these anymore; I’m talking about the French revolution and its reign of terror with 40,000 people left dead, many of them innocent, the Unification of Italy with its redshirts infamous for raping and pillaging villages, Napoleon and his wars with 2.5 million dead, the American revolution and of course the American civil war.

Let me make this clear: the fight to end slavery was good. Better than good, excellent. So my point is that war when it is just (that is, waged for self defense or for a right) is ‘good’, a ‘necessary’ evil. Yet, what was so necessary with killing 40,000 people including Priests and nuns in the French revolution? What was so necessary in dechristianizing France and Italy? One guy said that the reign of terror was OK because it was the revolutions REVENGE against the Church. And exactly what did the Church do that made its nuns and rural Priests worthy of getting murdered? Did it own land? Yes, but poor people also owned land and owning land doesn’t mean its something bad. Its true the Church was tax exempt, yet the Church is tax exempt today in the US and not many people complain about it. Why? Because since Churches have such large communities and spend so much on charity, its necessary for it to be tax exempt so that the money would be focused differently.

Now why doesn’t CFSH call the people who too up arms against slavery fanatical, or the peasants of the French revolution fanatical or rather, the freemasons, some of whom were wealthy themselves, fanatical for killing so many innocent people? It chooses to ignore all this and then it says what has to be the most hypocritical piece of **** I have ever read in my entire life:

For freethinkers, the message of the Cristero War is clear: religion is dangerous and laced with the potential for violence (as evidenced by the deadly 2006 Muslim eruptions over Danish cartoons of the Prophet). Overpowering governmental attempts to subdue it can impel believers into irrational slaughter. A wiser course is to maintain separation of church and state, patiently waiting for advances in education and science to erode public support for supernaturalism.

I’m going to nitpick this paragraph because frankly, it amazes me:

For freethinkers, the message of the Cristero War is clear: religion is dangerous and laced with the potential for violence (as evidenced by the deadly 2006 Muslim eruptions over Danish cartoons of the Prophet). And what does Islam have anything to with Catholicism? They as different from each other as night and day. Christians don’t have the mentality of Muslims and few Muslims have the mentality of the Taliban. Either way, its not like secular people didn’t commit atrocities. Anyone remember the 2011 London riots or all the wars and revolutions lsited above? What about mob lynchings of black people in the 20th century?

Overpowering governmental attempts to subdue it can impel believers into irrational slaughter. Irrational slaughter? Because the government didn’t irrationally slaughter Catholics. Few Cristeros actually went to villages and slaughtered everyone they saw; those who did were thugs and did not represent the whole movement. Government attempts to subdue religion? Are you for real? I agree that a government should forbid religious people from performing human sacrifice but look, the Catholic religion does not practice human sacrifice. The government stole land that the Church legally owned and even then, how would removing the land owned by the Church be doing any good? Isn’t forbidding Priests to criticize government a violation of freedom of speech? Supporting these practices implies that the religiously devout have lesser rights than the brand of secularists CFSH wants everyone to be which of course is utter ****.


#2

I]A wiser course is to maintain separation of church and state, patiently waiting for advances in education and science to erode public support for supernaturalism.

And to this I have to facepalm:

http://www.demotivationalposters.org/image/demotivational-poster/small/0912/implied-facepalm-implied-facepalm-demotivational-poster-1259858393.jpg

We have separation of Church and state but we also have freedom of religion. Religious freedom lets us send our children to appropriate schools, be they secular or religious and the government has no right to interfere where we send our children, and it also lets us express our religious views and criticize the government when it fails to abide by these rules such as Obama's HHS mandate forcing Catholics to supply contraception. Patiently waiting for advances to erode public support of supernaturalism? Well good luck with that because freemasons said that 200 years ago and we still have tons of devout Catholics, we still have a lot of people respecting religion and no matter how much secularists act, the influence of the Church on western morality is undeniable and still resonates in contempt for promiscuity, at least in older people, and for contempt of abortion and same sex 'marriage', And even if the majority of the world were to become atheist with Catholics becoming a minority, that is still no excuse to make the Church a puppet of the government like how CFSH wants to. We have rights and nobody will infringe them.

So what do you guys think? In my opinion, the Cristero war, while made out of a good intention, sometimes did take things too far (not that the government was so angelic. On the contrary, it was demonic). Without them, we wouldn't have so much religious freedom in Mexico and people can't stand by and do nothing as their brethren are murdered. This article is pure utter **** and is an insult to all the brave Cristeros who were martyred, just as calling people who took up arms against slavery fanatics is an insult to them. Some anti-slavery people may have commitd atrocities but that doesn't make slavery any better or the movement opposing it any owrse ebcause a very small minority of its members commited atrocities. Also, the message of the article, impliying that controlling rleigion and curbing its freedom is OK is idiotic, dumb, pretentious and all around anti-catholic. If the government wasn't so anti-catholic, none of this would have happened.


#3

Not sure if you are a Brother Knight or not but the new issue of the Columbia is all about the Cristeros and the Mexican president's war on Catholics. Lots of great reads in this issue. Some of our good Brother Knights were martyred in that struggle.


#4

[quote="mcrow, post:3, topic:283987"]
Not sure if you are a Brother Knight or not but the new issue of the Columbia is all about the Cristeros and the Mexican president's war on Catholics. Lots of great reads in this issue. Some of our good Brother Knights were martyred in that struggle.

[/quote]

And here is a review of the film For Greater Glory, which is the story of that same conflict.


#5

Why waste time getting angry about what atheists and secularists and liberals want.

They want the end of traditional religion, especially as a widespread, influential phenomenon. They probably don't mind the Amish and Hasidic Jews.

But, anyway, their position is clear. They want us all gone, or, our beliefs to all go extinct.

Why are you so surprises that they take a biased, lopsided view of history?

Yet, to be fair, Catholics and other Christians sometimes "whitewash" our foul deed in the course of history. For example, the greatest amount of injustice ever done in Mexico was by CATHOLICS, in the form of the Spanish Conquistadors and the priests, friars and bishops who aided and abetted them. The crimes against human carried out by the Spanish conquerors of Mexico are so well documented that there is no point in anyone trying to deny them. Yes, the Spanish stopped the human sacrifices of the Aztecs, and then the Spanish carried murder on a scale that paled anything the Aztecs ever did. There WERE some protests from Catholics on the scene. My user name on this site is named after one of those protesters, Bartolome de las Casas. But his protests, though somewhat recognized in the Vatican as legitimate, had little or no effect.

The atheists had their time to create a better world, in Communist Russia and China, and they blew it big time, so nobody with a brain takes them seriously any more.

I don't think we need to worry about things. The Kingdom of God is an invincible fortress. The future history of things has already been written in the Councils of Heaven, and we know the ending: God and those who love God win in the end. In the meantime, God PROMISES us that those who love God and who are loyal to God WILL be persecuted. God did not promise us victory in worldly politics and culture in this fallen world.

Well, I guess you get my point.

In a war, people LIE in order to win. In society, there is a never ending war in politics and culture, and liberals-atheists-humanists-secularists LIE and will continue to LIE. Why be surprised? Why be angry.

Let us just be sure we don't lie ourselves in order to try to win. We don't need to do that. God is going to win. We don't need to worry. We don't need to win the Culture War. We just need to love God and love neighbor, strangers, sinners and enemies, and if we do that, all shall be well.

Anyway, that's what I think.


#6

Mister, you’re right in saying I shouldn’t take the words of militant atheists seriously. I know I shouldn’t. As my dad said when I did, I ‘fell for trolling’. Its true Catholics did do evil in the past: putting Jews in ghettos in order to defend religion and SOME of the crusades (not all the crusades which were a defense against Muslim invasion) but I would never say Catholics exploited native Americans. Pizarro was a complete monster, full stop, but people like Cortez weren’t. Native American tribes themselves helped him to bring down the Aztecs. There were some cruel Priests like Diego de Landa but they were few and even he ended a lot of human sacrifice and to my knowledge was deposed by Catholics themselves. Catholics did have an influence over defending native americans. Bishop Zumaraga, de la Casas, Jesuit reduction and of course, Our Lady of Guadalupe (and Las Lajas. And Ocotlan.) helped a lot in the better treatment of native Americans and the Jesuits even armed natives to defend themselves against Europeans. In fact, interbreeding with the Spanish and Americans produced the Mexican race.

I don’t think there ever was a ‘holocaust’ nor was it intended by even the Spanish. It is probable de la Casas, God and Mary bless him, made some stuff up in order to them such as soldeirs randomly killing children. Many natives died out of disease and when vaccination was amde available, the Spanish immediately supplied it to the natives. I never understood the encomienda system though. My point is the Church wanted to convert native americans. Even the Pope went into the action with Sublimus Dei. It was only greedy lords and SOME Priests who did the bad stuff. It can’t be denied that a lot of Catholics preferred that the natives be under European rule not as slaves but as ordinary people in order to bring them away from their superstitions but that was ebcuse they saw the utter tragedy that was the Aztec religion. Thats my opinion. The Church never held the idea that it was OK to kill native americans because they weren’t Catholic nor was it a prevalent thought amongst the clergy.


#7

Also, its not a culture war but if we don’t speak against things like abortion, same sex marriage and let secularists go on with their perverse lives and wait for God to perform some three days of darkness hocus pocus, because I refuse to accept God killing all the enemiess of the Church as a victory, we’d be accomplishing bloody NOTHING. We have the Blessed Virgin to hope in. Lets act like Her and convert people instead of being lazy and doing nothing.


#8

Viva Cristo Rey!

I'd like to see the Cristeros (For Greater Glory) movie. Anyone know where's it's playing in English.


#9

Greetings new friends... Peace be to you all. I am fascinated by this idea but I do not know an answer.

I think all religions commit these terrible crimes. I have seen it in my native land. To say which is worse is to ask, who won and who lost. Consider that both sides are fighting each other... it is not for man to decide which is worse or which is even justified. Great evils fought in the name of religions... but if there were no religions, I suspect man would still fight.


#10

[quote="MrSylvester, post:6, topic:283987"]
Mister, you're right in saying I shouldn't take the words of militant atheists seriously. I know I shouldn't. As my dad said when I did, I 'fell for trolling'. Its true Catholics did do evil in the past: putting Jews in ghettos in order to defend religion and SOME of the crusades (not all the crusades which were a defence against Muslim invasion) but I would never say Catholics exploited native Americans. Pizarro was a complete monster, full stop, but people like Cortez weren't. Native American tribes themselves helped him to bring down the Aztecs. There were some cruel Priests like Diego de Landa but they were few and even he ended a lot of human sacrifice and to my knowledge was deposed by Catholics themselves. Catholics did have an influence over defending native Americans. Bishop Zumaraga, de la Casas, Jesuit reduction and of course, Our Lady of Guadalupe (and Las Lajas. And Ocotlan.) helped a lot in the better treatment of native Americans and the Jesuits even armed natives to defend themselves against Europeans. In fact, interbreeding with the Spanish and Americans produced the Mexican race.

I don't think there ever was a 'holocaust' nor was it intended by even the Spanish. It is probable de la Casas, God and Mary bless him, made some stuff up in order to them such as soldiers randomly killing children. Many natives died out of disease and when vaccination was made available, the Spanish immediately supplied it to the natives. I never understood the encomienda system though. My point is the Church wanted to convert native Americans. Even the Pope went into the action with Sublimus Dei. It was only greedy lords and SOME Priests who did the bad stuff. It can't be denied that a lot of Catholics preferred that the natives be under European rule not as slaves but as ordinary people in order to bring them away from their superstitions but that was excuse they saw the utter tragedy that was the Aztec religion. That's my opinion. The Church never held the idea that it was OK to kill native Americans because they weren't Catholic nor was it a prevalent thought amongst the clergy.

[/quote]

I must say, if you are referring to Hernando Cortez, he was indeed a monster. He did some pretty horrible things to gain control of the Aztec Empire, and killed many innocents on the way there. The fact is also that while most priests probably did object to the treatment, it many other priests allowed and aided it. It was by no means an exaggeration, if you read the reports and diaries of the perpetrators themselves, you will find horrible accounts of horrendous deeds towards the natives. Even though the Spanish did not treat the natives well, this has no bearing on the validity or inherent goodness of Catholicism or any religion. It is what some misguided people did, often falsely in the name of religion.


#11

[quote="JNdoum, post:10, topic:283987"]
I must say, if you are referring to Hernando Cortez, he was indeed a monster. He did some pretty horrible things to gain control of the Aztec Empire, and killed many innocents on the way there. The fact is also that while most priests probably did object to the treatment, it many other priests allowed and aided it. It was by no means an exaggeration, if you read the reports and diaries of the perpetrators themselves, you will find horrible accounts of horrendous deeds towards the natives. Even though the Spanish did not treat the natives well, this has no bearing on the validity or inherent goodness of Catholicism or any religion. It is what some misguided people did, often falsely in the name of religion.

[/quote]

I don't know, Cortes did wage war but to my knowledge, thats all he did. Some Priests aided but not all of them and the majority DEFINITELY'didn't support any atrocity agaisnt the natives. To me, Cortes always seemed to be the best of the conquisatadors, with Pizarro being the truly loathesome monster. I don't know, but he didn't take down the Aztecs without help from other native americans and his future wife. It makes me want to bang my head on a desk when a native american comes up to me and says that the Spanish and the Church commited cultural genocide when it opposed the Aztec religion despite, you know, killing 20,000 people a year for pointless sacrifice and even killing children and opressing other native tribes. Also, Priests, including Diego de Landa recorded the native language and preserved a lot of traditions. Without them, we wouldn't know so much about what they believed.


#12

[quote="Ignatius, post:8, topic:283987"]
Viva Cristo Rey!

I'd like to see the Cristeros (For Greater Glory) movie. Anyone know where's it's playing in English.

[/quote]

From the link I provided:

For Greater Glory premiered in Mexico on April 20 and will hit theaters across the United States June 1. For more information, or to view the film’s trailer, visit forgreaterglory.com.

Also, check your local theater listings. I found the film in the "Coming Soon" section of the website for my local movie theater chain.


#13

I am not an expert, but I do know that Cortez often purposefully turned the tribes against the Aztecs to conquer them, and that this was in fact his plan all along. As he was taught in my history class, I never saw him as a warm or kind man. However, I do agree that the Aztec sacrifices were bloody and wrong, and I do believe that only through records of priests like the man you mentioned was Aztec history recorded and remembered. I am not saying that the Spanish did a cultural genocide, but they did do a physical one, though not with that mindset. In all honesty, they treated the Natives of South America much better than the British ever treated the Natives of North America, or much of anyone they subjugated, even when you take all of the collective massacres together. I hope I’m not sounding critical or mean in any way. I don’t intend to, if I am, I’m just trying to say what I learned.


#14

There are a few good homilies on the topic archived at Audio Sancto:

Viva Christo Rey: Live Like Christ is Your King

The Cristeros: Will We See Another Catholic Persecution?


#15

The problem is not religion. It is not even money, land, power, or anything like that. Those things can be neutral or even good.

The problem is human nature. People will use all sorts of excuses for their behavior. They will say that they declare wars in the name of God, but they are only blaspheming the name of the Lord by doing such, for their real motive is personal fulfillment, be it of physical, mental, or emotional desires.


#16

[quote="mcrow, post:3, topic:283987"]
Not sure if you are a Brother Knight or not but the new issue of the Columbia is all about the Cristeros and the Mexican president's war on Catholics. Lots of great reads in this issue. Some of our good Brother Knights were martyred in that struggle.

[/quote]

I'm not a brother Knight, sorry:).

Well, I'm glad I too that out in thsi thread. It makes me so mad. Not menaing to be rude or proud but I'm frankly flabbergasted that a person who says such things in this day and age exists. I mean wow, just wow.


#17

Guys, while I have gotten over these atheists with their (Edited) reasoning, something still bothers me. I just find it hard to accept that there are people who are willing to gloss over such atrocities just because the one who made them was atheist and yet expect us to accept those atrocities as ‘good’. Telling a Catholic to look at Calles as doing the right thing mass murdering Catholics and Priests, forbidding them to talk in public and forbidding them to practice their religion is like telling a Jew to accept the decisions of Hitler and Mussolini as good for the country and that is of course complete bull. Oh, what, you’ll tell me Calles didn’t experiment on people like Hitler and he didn’t have concentration camps? Thats like saying hey, he killed 500 people, but at least he ain’t Stalin. It bothers me. Either way, Viva Cristo Rey and Salve Maria Regina!


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