This is what I believe, Im I correct in my thinking?


#1

I was looking online at some varies views of the Catholic Church. The main reasons why people say we are doomed to hell is they think the following. This is what I believe through study, I consider myself Catholic, not confirmed yet, as far as I know this is what the Catholics believe as well, correct me if I am wrong.

  1. We don’t worship Mary. We respect her. We honor her. She is the Mother of God, why should we not honor her. She is not a god and will never be one. She has no power over God. No one does. We simply ask her to pray for us. We ask each other to pray for us, why not her, she is alive in heaven.

  2. We do not worship Idols. Just because we have a statue of a saint and pray in front of it, in no means does that mean we worship it. When we have a statue of a saint in front of us, it means we are talking to that saint that that statue “represents”. We are not worshiping that statue at all. It is symbolization.

  3. We do not believe that good works will lead us to heaven. Only Jesus Christ and his ultimate sacrifice can lead us to heaven by putting our full faith and trust on Him and his death, burial and ressurection. Good works and following the scriptures and the church (Which follows the scriptures) is what signifies that we are on the true path to God. Again, all must follow all the teachings of the Scripture to go to heaven.

  4. Being Dunked into water does not save us. Believing in Christ’s death burial and resurection putting your Faith in that And True Holy Baptism is what leads us to Salvation

  5. We do not believe that you can lose your salvation. Salvation is not yours to have, but it is God’s to give. It clearly states in the scriptures that we need to be baptized in water and the Spirit ***as well as ***walk in God’s path till the end to recieve God’s salvation. Turning away from God is what insures Hell.

  6. The Catholic Church does not add to the scriptures, but expounds on them. The apostles were given the power to reveal “unserachable riches” in the Bible. And the Apostles were the founders of the church.

  7. We do not believe that Protestents are going to hell. If they believe the Death Burial and Resurrection and that God’s blood cleanses us of our sins through baptism and believing, Live a good life that is pleasing to God, and loves his neighbor. They are not excluded from heaven.

  8. Man can not forgive us of our sins. The priest can not forgive us with his own power, but by going to a priest Jesus forgives us through him. Jesus is the only one who forgives us of our sins. But it does say to confess our sins one to another in the Bible. That is where confession comes from.

  9. We do not believe that by partaking in the Eucherist we are actually eating Jesus. We are taking in his presence which is a form of forgiveness and a fresh start for those who have sinned.

This is what I believe, is there anything that I stated that contradicts the Church?

Many Blessings

Ben


#2

I would suggest reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Then you’ll be able to discern whether or not your beliefs line up with what the Church teaches.

While I appreciate your concern and enthusiasm for the faith, it is important to understand that it is not about what we believe to be true, it’s about “The Truth” and the revelation of it, and whether or not we are conformed to it.

Peace +


#3

#4

Thank you Julian, That is what I meant, I just wanted to clarify that we are not actually eating like canabals do. Jesus is in the Bread and transforms the bread, it tastes like bread ect…were not actually munching on fat tissue :slight_smile:


#5

#6

Most of what you say is right, Linoge1. There are a few points where there is some deviation from the Church’s teaching and/or Tradition, though, so I’ll respond with particular length to those.

You’re right that we simply ask Mary to pray for us.

But saying Mary has no power over God is to somewhat misunderstand the relationship that exists between the two. They are united so closely, it is beyond description how closely they are united. Because of the incredible depth of their unity, Mary’s will is always God’s will. Whenever she asks God for anything, God will do it. She has power over God because He has given it to her. Catholics sometimes say that she has “conquered God.” The explanation for this is that she has so totally, so absolutely submitted to God in abject humility that it is no longer her that lives but God that lives in her, and He loves her so much and honors her so much that He will, of His own choice, do whatever she wants. Whatever she wants is perfectly pleasing to God, and she only asks what is one with His will.

Yep.

My correction to this is that we don’t believe works ALONE will bring us to Heaven. It has to be works and faith, not one or the other, and all has value and saving power only through the Passion of Jesus Christ.

I’ll get to the rest of your post later. God bless you!


#7

St Faustina also, on a number of occasions, saw the host become the Baby Jesus at the consecration, and then she saw the priest eat Him. At first she was very upset by it. Jesus is substantially present in the Eucharist - that’s why it’s called transubstantiation, referring to a complete transformation of substance.

I’m a little confused by your calling yourself Catholic, since I thought from other posts that you are not in full communion with the Church? I might be wrong, but I’m not sure one can simply “consider” oneself to be Catholic. If that were the case, I wouldn’t need to be in R.C.I.A. right now.


#8

Hi, :slight_smile: I think most of what you said is correct, but there are a few points that perhaps need clarification?

  1. We do not believe that good works will lead us to heaven. Only Jesus Christ and his ultimate sacrifice can lead us to heaven by putting our full faith and trust on Him and his death, burial and ressurection. Good works and following the scriptures and the church (Which follows the scriptures) is what signifies that we are on the true path to God. Again, all must follow all the teachings of the Scripture to go to heaven.

The Church agrees with you that we can’t earn salvation and that only Jesus’ sacrifice can save us. We are saved by grace alone. However, we are not saved by faith alone… because there’s no such thing as “faith alone”. Faith that’s alone is dead (James 2). So we’re saved by grace through faith working in love…through actually living our faith, not just believing. That is how God’s grace grows in us. The Catholic Church teaches that salvation is a transformation, by which God’s grace actually makes us righteous. This is called “Infused righteousness” and is different than “imputed righteousness” taught by many Protestants. What I’m saying is that in Heaven we really will be perfect, we would love God completely and not sin anymore. And to get there, we must cooperate with God’s grace here on earth as He transforms us. If we don’t cooperate, not much would happen, perhaps even if we believe God exists… (Christ said there would be those who call Him “Lord” but won’t be saved).

  1. Being Dunked into water does not save us. Believing in Christ’s death burial and resurection putting your Faith in that And True Holy Baptism is what leads us to Salvation

the Church teaches that Baptism is a sacrament. A real spiritual change takes place in water baptism. We don’t differentiate between ‘water’ and ‘Holy Spirit’ baptism…they’re one and the same. When you’re baptized, in water, in the name of the Holy Trinity, the Holy Spirit takes away your original sin and any previous personal sins. You’re a new creation :slight_smile: if you sin again after that, you repent and go to Confession to be made clean again. “Those who persevere till the end shall be saved.”

If a person dies right after Baptism, they will go to Heaven.

  1. We do not believe that by partaking in the Eucherist we are actually eating Jesus. We are taking in his presence which is a form of forgiveness and a fresh start for those who have sinned.

Christ is physically present in the Eucharist, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.

He’s present everywhere spiritually, but physically only in Heaven and in the Eucharist.

It’s His risen Body. It’s not cannibalism because He’s risen, but the bread and wine are really substantially Jesus’ Body and Blood. (even though they still LOOK like bread and wine.)

It’s like…it looks like one thing, but IS another. This is called “transubstantiation” : change of substance. The bread and wine are no longer present after the Consecration.

here’s a good article :slight_smile:
davidmacd.com/catholic/eucharist.htm

and
catholic.com/library/sacraments.asp

there are many miracles that support this…such as:
miraclerosarymission.org/lanciano.html

God bless :slight_smile:


#9

Jesus said that he who believes and is baptized is saved. Baptism is a necessary part of the ordinary way of salvation. God can use His divine power to save outside of the sacraments, but these are the ordinary, most secure and most blessed way. If anyone has sufficient knowledge of truth to accept this way and reject it, they will not inherit eternal life.

Good.

That’s right, though the whole idea Protestants use when talking about the risks of “adding to the Bible” is misleading. When they warn against “adding to the Bible,” they take it as their assumption that the Bible is all there was ever meant to be. Thus they rule out the authority and validity of the infallible Magesterium and Tradition of the Church right from the get-go. They don’t understand that the Bible is what was “added” to Tradition. Tradition and Magesterium were all there was in the beginning.

The Bible canon was established infallibly by the Catholic Church at the end of the 4th century. The first books of the Bible were written in the 50s AD, and at the time, they were not generally considered infallible among Christians, though they were seen as having great authority and were read in many churches among other books and epistles of the time. So for the first 20 years of Christian history, there was only Tradition and the authority of the Church leaders. Even when the books of the Bible were written, the canon was not settled for about 400 years. So it was Tradition and Magesterium from the beginning. It was the Bible that was “added on” to Christianity!

I’ll continue with the rest of my post later :).


#10

Wait, we DO believe that you can lose your salvation, in the sense that we oppose the view of “once save, always saved,” which some Protestants espouse.

And as for #9, I’d like to add to what Fulbert and Monica said. Jesus is present in the Eucharist: body, blood, soul, and divinity. But we should be careful when we say He is physically present. He is physically (meaning bones, hair, toenails, etc.) present only in Heaven. It might be better to say that He is sacramentally present in the Eucharist. It’s still the body, blood, soul, and divinity, but we are not munching on physical skin, hair, etc. Thus, there are three types of “presences”: physical, symbolic, and sacramental. The last type is what confounds non-Catholics.


#11

That’s not true. Jesus is literally and completely present. His toenails, bones, hair, everything that is God the Son is present and we are munching on it and uniting with it. We are Christ’s Body through the Eucharist. You can’t say that His flesh is there but isn’t “really” there. It is there. St. John Chrystosom wrote that he was chewing on Christ’s flesh when he ate the Eucharist. That is true. Yet Christ’s Body is glorified through the Resurrection. Eating Jesus’ flesh and drinking His blood is not like eating or drinking a normal person’s flesh and blood. The latter is a participation in death. The former is participation in life. Christ’s body is glorified and glorifies.

[quote=Linoge1]7. We do not believe that Protestents are going to hell. If they believe the Death Burial and Resurrection and that God’s blood cleanses us of our sins through baptism and believing, Live a good life that is pleasing to God, and loves his neighbor. They are not excluded from heaven.
[/quote]

This can be true, but it is not always true. Everyone has a responsibility before God to embrace truth when the Spirit shows it to them. They are not responsible for acting on truth that the Spirit has not revealed to them. Everyone is judged on what they know, on how they embrace God’s truth insofar as they are aware of it. They are not judged on what they don’t know.

Therefore when the Spirit has not revealed to Protestants the truth of the Catholic Church, and they remain Protestant, they are not condemned by what they don’t know. If the Spirit does reveal to them the truth of the Catholic Church and they become aware of it but reject it, then they are rejecting Jesus and cannot inherit eternal life. Jesus is the foundation of the Church, and the Church is His Body. Anyone who rejects the Church rejects Christ, and anyone who fights the Church fights Christ. Only ignorance can protect them if they actively do this, as Christ said from the Cross when He prayed, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.”

[quote=Linoge1]8. Man can not forgive us of our sins. The priest can not forgive us with his own power, but by going to a priest Jesus forgives us through him. Jesus is the only one who forgives us of our sins. But it does say to confess our sins one to another in the Bible. That is where confession comes from.
[/quote]

Yes, Jesus forgives us through the priest. The priest has the authority to distribute this forgiveness, representing the Church. The wholeness of Christ forgives, and the Church is part of the wholeness of Christ, and it is the blessed part through which He chooses to act. Thus when the priest forgives, Christ and His Body forgive. The wholeness of Christ forgives.

[quote=Linoge1]9. We do not believe that by partaking in the Eucherist we are actually eating Jesus. We are taking in his presence which is a form of forgiveness and a fresh start for those who have sinned.
[/quote]

We are eating Jesus when we partake in the Eucharist. This is a vital part of what it means to be Catholic, to be one in Christ completely rather than in parts. We aren’t only united with His spiritual presence of His symbolic presence, or His forgiveness. We are united with His ENTIRE presence, the whole being of the Son of God. The Eucharist is God. It – I could just as well say “He” here – is Divine, which is why we can worship Him at Eucharistic Adoration. We are worshipping the Eucharist, which is Jesus Christ present in Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, in His whole Divine Person. We are unapologetic over this glorious perfection of union.

Jesus wants no “halves” in His unity with us. He wants us completely one with Him. He prayed to His Father that all of us be one as He and His Father are one (John 17:22). He prayed, “I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me” (John 17:20-21). He said He was in His Father and His Father in Him, and even so He wanted to be in us. That is a reference to the Eucharist, to His desire to be in us completely. The Father and Son are perfectly unified, given over wholly and completely to one another with nothing held back. In the same way, Christ gave Himself wholly up to us on the Cross and gives Himself wholly up to us now. In 1 Corinthians 12, we read that there is no division in the Body of Christ. That is the case. In Christ, we are wholly one.


#12

What I mean by that is, salvation is judged on the day of judgment. If you followed the Bible (which is also the teachings of the church) had faith in his Death Burial Ressurection and were baptized then salvation is yours. Being “saved” is something that is tossed around so recklessly. :slight_smile: I agree with you


#13

It can be, if God hasn’t revealed the fuller truth of His Church to you. If He revealed the full truth of the Catholic Church to a Protestant and that Protestant rejected the fuller truth he now was aware of, and continued believing in Jesus, trying to follow the Bible (and of course was baptized), he would not be saved unless he repented and embraced the fullness of the Catholic faith.

The sacraments and full unity with the Catholic Church are the ordinary way of salvation. To be saved without being unified with these, you have to be ignorant of their truth. If you know their truth in your heart and still reject it, you cannot be saved.

Ignorance can protect people that are not in full communion with Rome, but if they know the truth and reject it, they are rejecting Christ and will be damned. For Christ said, “I AM the Truth.”

People can be saved without being baptized, without having heard of a Bible and without having heard of Jesus, if they are in genuine ignorance of the truth of all these things. People are responsible for embracing the truth they know, the truth God has revealed to them. Note that I say the truth God has revealed to them, not the truth man has revealed to them, for man’s ways of revealing truth are usually flawed and don’t easily reach the heart like God does.

Agreed.


#14

But notice the careful delineation I made in terminology. Yes, we are eating the substance of Christ’s body. So yes, we are eating the same thing as His hair, skin, etc. That’s exactly what St. John Chrysostom was saying. But the actual physical body that walked this Earth will return at the 2nd coming. I certainly don’t mean to create a division and imply that Jesus has two bodies (and a third being the Church) but I’m simply introducing a technicality in language. His presence is of a different kind in the Eucharist than it is in the bones and hair that are physically in Heaven right now. That’s not undermining the doctrine of the Real Presence.


#15

[quote=surritter]But notice the careful delineation I made in terminology. Yes, we are eating the substance of Christ’s body. So yes, we are eating the same thing as His hair, skin, etc. That’s exactly what St. John Chrysostom was saying. But the actual physical body that walked this Earth will return at the 2nd coming. I certainly don’t mean to create a division and imply that Jesus has two bodies (and a third being the Church) but I’m simply introducing a technicality in language. His presence is of a different kind in the Eucharist than it is in the bones and hair that are physically in Heaven right now. That’s not undermining the doctrine of the Real Presence.
[/quote]

Now you’ve confounded me. What are you talking about?

How can this be His flesh and blood and not be His physical body? :confused:

And by the way, what do you think of the miracles of bleeding hosts and hosts supernaturally revealed to be heart tissue, which have been held in high honor by the Catholic Church?


#16

That’s exactly why it’s a miracle! Because the sacramental presence of Jesus has taken on the physical properties of a body.


#17

Every Eucharistic consecration is a miracle :). The difference is that with a Host miraculously exposed as heart tissue, the Host’s true nature is revealed. God uses that revelation of the true nature of the Host to convince priests of the reality of the sacrament. The nature of the Host is in no way changed in the miracle. It’s just that the accidents are hidden.

The physical properties of the body were always there, only through the concealment of the accidents of bread and wine, the physical properties are revealed.


#18

I agree… :slight_smile:

And this food is called among us the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone.

St Justin Martyr, 150 AD

Although the figure of the bread and wine be seen, still, after the Consecration, they are to be believed to be nothing else than the body end blood of Christ.

St Thomas Aquinas


#19

Lief – I think we’re getting very close to agreement :slight_smile:

Yes, every Eucharist is a miracle – but you mentioned the term as in those that specifically revealed blood corpuscles, heart tissue, etc.

But I still disagree when you write that “the physical properties of the body were always there…” No – we put a consecrated host under a microscope and the physical properties will betray those of bread. But I affirm with you that it is not bread.

Sorry to cause all this confusion. I was trying to take the general word “physical” and show that in Catholic circles it can have two meanings: one related to purely time and space (such as the chemical makeup of an object) and one that means “bodily” in that it contains a given substance. The Eucharist cannot be called physical in the first sense but it can in the second sense.

From Paul IV’s encyclical:
The way Christ is made present in this Sacrament is none other than by the change of the whole substance of the bread into His Body, and of the whole substance of the wine into His Blood, and that this unique and truly wonderful change the Catholic Church rightly calls transubstantiation. As a result of transubstantiation, the species of bread and wine undoubtedly take on a new meaning and a new finality, for they no longer remain ordinary bread and ordinary wine, but become the sign of something sacred, the sign of a spiritual food. However, the reason they take on this new significance and this new finality is simply because they contain a new “reality” which we may justly term ontological. Not that there lies under those species what was already there before, but something quite different; and that not only because of the faith of the Church, but in objective reality, since after the change of the substance or nature of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ, nothing remains of the bread and wine but the appearances, under which Christ, whole and entire, in His physical “reality” is bodily present, although not in the same way that bodies are present in a given place.

  • Pope Paul VI in Mysterium Fidei (emphasis added)

It would be futile to try to prove or disprove the real presence by physical experiments, because the presence of Christ is spiritual or sacramental, not physical in the sense of measurable. – Avery Cardinal Dulles, in Christ’s Presence in the Eucharist: True, Real and Substantial


#20

I don’t think you two are really disagreeing with each other, I think it’s primarily a matter of language.

The substance of the bread is completely converted into the substance of the physical body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ. Thus, the substance of the bread is no longer actually there. The accidents, or attributes, of the bread remain despite the absence of the bread, masking the body of Christ with their mere appearance. The “substance” of a thing is what it is. The “attributes” or “accidents” are nonessential properties that, in this unique case, are not proper to that which they are now the attributes of - that is, Jesus’ body.

Does that help, or make things worse? :smiley:


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.