This man says that souls die and are not eternal (and uses a TON of scripture to back his view)


#1

I really wanted to see what you guys say about this. And I know there is a similar thread floating around but I wouldn’t to keep this one separate and dealing with this particular link. Here it is

bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Topical.show/RTD/cgg/ID/803/Immortality-of-Soul.htm

Here is a shorter summary, if the above is too long for you

bibletruthkeys.com/immortality_versus_mortality.htm


#2

One way to approach this is to reference where the Catechism of the Catholic Church refers to the points listed in this person’s arguments.

The first Scripture discussed is Genesis 2:7

Genesis 2:7

We must briefly consider whether man has an immortal soul. Our understanding of the Scriptures compels us to maintain that he does not for several reasons:

The catechism references Genesis 2:7 in three different places: paragraph 362, 369, and 703.

362 The human person, created in the image of God, is a being at once corporeal and spiritual. The biblical account expresses this reality in symbolic language when it affirms that "then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."229 Man, whole and entire, is therefore willed by God.

369 Man and woman have been created, which is to say, willed by God: on the one hand, in perfect equality as human persons; on the other, in their respective beings as man and woman. “Being man” or “being woman” is a reality which is good and willed by God: man and woman possess an inalienable dignity which comes to them immediately from God their Creator.240 Man and woman are both with one and the same dignity “in the image of God”. In their “being-man” and “being-woman”, they reflect the Creator’s wisdom and goodness.

703 The Word of God and his Breath are at the origin of the being and life of every creature:63

It belongs to the Holy Spirit to rule, sanctify, and animate creation, for he is God, consubstantial with the Father and the Son. . . . Power over life pertains to the Spirit, for being God he preserves creation in the Father through the Son.64

» Job recognized that man has a spirit (Job 32:8), which Paul shows in I Corinthians 2:11 endows humanity with intellect. This spirit in man comes from God (Zechariah 12:1) and returns to Him when we die (Ecclesiastes 12:7; Acts 7:59). It records our experiences, character, and personality, which God stores until the resurrection of the dead. However, the Bible never describes this spirit as immortal or eternal; in fact, I Corinthians 2:6-16 explains that man needs yet another Spirit, God’s, to be complete and discern godly things.

Job 32:8, Zechariah 12:1, Acts 7:59 and I Corinthians 2:6-16 are not specifically referenced in the CCC.

I Corinthians 2:11 is referenced in CCC 687:

687 "No one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God."7 Now God’s Spirit, who reveals God, makes known to us Christ, his Word, his living Utterance, but the Spirit does not speak of himself. The Spirit who “has spoken through the prophets” makes us hear the Father’s Word, but we do not hear the Spirit himself. We know him only in the movement by which he reveals the Word to us and disposes us to welcome him in faith. The Spirit of truth who “unveils” Christ to us "will not speak on his own."8 Such properly divine self-effacement explains why “the world cannot receive [him], because it neither sees him nor knows him,” while those who believe in Christ know the Spirit because he dwells with them.9

Ecclesiastes 12:1 is referenced in CCC 1007:

1007 Death is the end of earthly life. Our lives are measured by time, in the course of which we change, grow old and, as with all living beings on earth, death seems like the normal end of life. That aspect of death lends urgency to our lives: remembering our mortality helps us realize that we have only a limited time in which to bring our lives to fulfillment:

Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth, . . . before the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.570


#3

» The Bible flatly asserts that all people die: “It is appointed for men to die once” (Hebrews 9:27). Ezekiel says clearly that souls die: “The soul who sins shall die” (Ezekiel 18:4, 20; see Romans 6:23). Jesus warns in Matthew 10:28 that God can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

Ezechial 18:4 is not specifically referenced in the CCC.

Hebrews 9:27 is referenced in CCC 527:

527 Jesus’ circumcision, on the eighth day after his birth,209 is the sign of his incorporation into Abraham’s descendants, into the people of the covenant. It is the sign of his submission to the Law210 and his deputation to Israel’s worship, in which he will participate throughout his life. This sign prefigures that “circumcision of Christ” which is Baptism.211

Ezechial 18:20 is referenced in CCC 2811:

2811 In spite of the holy Law that again and again their Holy God gives them - “You shall be holy, for I the LORD your God am holy” - and although the Lord shows patience for the sake of his name, the people turn away from the Holy One of Israel and profane his name among the nations. For this reason the just ones of the old covenant, the poor survivors returned from exile, and the prophets burned with passion for the name.

Romans 6:23 is referenced in CCC 1006 and 1008:

1006 "It is in regard to death that man’s condition is most shrouded in doubt."567 In a sense bodily death is natural, but for faith it is in fact "the wages of sin."568 For those who die in Christ’s grace it is a participation in the death of the Lord, so that they can also share his Resurrection.569

1008 Death is a consequence of sin. The Church’s Magisterium, as authentic interpreter of the affirmations of Scripture and Tradition, teaches that death entered the world on account of man’s sin.571 Even though man’s nature is mortal God had destined him not to die. Death was therefore contrary to the plans of God the Creator and entered the world as a consequence of sin.572 “Bodily death, from which man would have been immune had he not sinned” is thus “the last enemy” of man left to be conquered.573

Matthew 10:28 is referenced in CCC 363 and 1034:

363 In Sacred Scripture the term “soul” often refers to human life or the entire human person. But “soul” also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him, that by which he is most especially in God’s image: “soul” signifies the spiritual principle in man.

1034 Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"616

That’s a lot to digest so maybe addressing the first two points to start instead of diving into every point at the same time may be an advisable approach.

Additional cross-references:

240: Genesis 2:22

703 The Word of God and his Breath are at the origin of the being and life of every creature:63

It belongs to the Holy Spirit to rule, sanctify, and animate creation, for he is God, consubstantial with the Father and the Son. . . . Power over life pertains to the Spirit, for being God he preserves creation in the Father through the Son.64

63: Psalms 33:6; Psalms 104:30; Genesis 1:2; Ecclesiasates 3:20-21; Ezekial 37:10


#4

Additional cross-references:

8: John 16:13
9: John 14:17

Ecclesiastes 12:1 is referenced in CCC 1007:

1007 Death is the end of earthly life. Our lives are measured by time, in the course of which we change, grow old and, as with all living beings on earth, death seems like the normal end of life. That aspect of death lends urgency to our lives: remembering our mortality helps us realize that we have only a limited time in which to bring our lives to fulfillment:

Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth, . . . before the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.570

570: Ecclesiasates 12:7

Additional cross-references:

210: Galatians 4:4
211: Collosians 2: 11-13

2811 In spite of the holy Law that again and again their Holy God gives them - “You shall be holy, for I the LORD your God am holy” - and although the Lord shows patience for the sake of his name, the people turn away from the Holy One of Israel and profane his name among the nations.74 For this reason the just ones of the old covenant, the poor survivors returned from exile, and the prophets burned with passion for the name.

74: Ezekial 20:9; Ezekial 14:22, 29; Leviticus 19:2

1006 "It is in regard to death that man’s condition is most shrouded in doubt."567 In a sense bodily death is natural, but for faith it is in fact "the wages of sin."568 For those who die in Christ’s grace it is a participation in the death of the Lord, so that they can also share his Resurrection.569

568: Genesis 2:17
569: Romans 6: 3-9; Philippians 3-10-11

1008 Death is a consequence of sin. The Church’s Magisterium, as authentic interpreter of the affirmations of Scripture and Tradition, teaches that death entered the world on account of man’s sin.571 Even though man’s nature is mortal God had destined him not to die. Death was therefore contrary to the plans of God the Creator and entered the world as a consequence of sin.572 “Bodily death, from which man would have been immune had he not sinned” is thus “the last enemy” of man left to be conquered.573

571: Genesis 2:17; Genesis 3:3; Genesis 3:19; Wisdom 1:13; Romans 5:12
572: Wisdom 2:23-24
573: 1 Corinthians 15:26

1034 Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"616

615: Matthew 13:41-42
616: Matthew 25:41


#5

Ezekiel 18:4 is not a reference to human afterlife or lack thereof, as it says “the soul that sins shall die” not “all souls shall die.”

Soul (nephesh or neshamah) is often used in the OT as a metonymy for the whole human being, just as we moderns often use “body”: When we say “somebody,” we are not speaking specifically of the solid human form.

ICXC NIKA


#6

Here’s a novel thought – since various Scriptures can be interpreted multiple ways, why not just follow the authority given by God to interpret those Scriptures? Then there would be no argument (at least on this very basic topic) because we could simply look to the catechism, as Stylteralmaldo deftly does above.

However, methinks that Mr. Ritenbaugh doesn’t want to do that. He wants to follow his own interpretation, rather than God’s designated authority. Gee, no wonder there are thousands of splintered Protestant groups.


#7

Wis 5:15 But the righteous live for evermore; their reward also is with the Lord, and the care of them is with the most High.

Certainly the individual in question agrees that a righteous person has a soul.


#8

Knowing Jesus Website
Just Google the words, "Jesus speaks on Eternal Life"
This is just some of it.
John 17:3
"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Psalm 16:11
You will make known to me the path of life; In Your presence is fullness of joy; In Your right hand there are pleasures forever.

2 Corinthians 4:17
For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison,
Daniel 12:3
"Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

2 Timothy 2:10
For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.

1 Peter 5:4
And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.
Matthew 25:46
“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 4:35-36
"Do you not say, ‘There are yet four months, and then comes the harvest’? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look on the fields, that they are white for harvest. "Already he who reaps is receiving wages and is gathering fruit for life eternal; so that he who sows and he who reaps may rejoice together.

1 Corinthians 15:20-22
But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

Psalm 49:15
But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol, For He will receive me.
Isaiah 26:19
Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.

1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

Revelation 21:4
and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."

Isaiah 25:8
He will swallow up death for all time, And the Lord GOD will wipe tears away from all faces, And He will remove the reproach of His people from all the earth; For the LORD has spoken.

1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

John 11:25-26
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

John 6:51
“I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”

John 8:51
Verse Concepts
“Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”

1 John 2:17
Verse Concepts
The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.

John 10:10

"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

John 4:14
but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."

John 6:67-69
So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?” Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. “We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.”

John 15:5
"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

Colossians 3:4

When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.

Galatians 2:20
"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Romans 6:4
Verse Concepts
Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Romans 8:10-11
If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Psalm 56:13

For You have delivered my soul from death, Indeed my feet from stumbling, So that I may walk before God In the light of the living.

Matthew 22:32
‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

1 John 1:1-2
What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life-- and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us–


#9

This is just some of it, too. The website has more.

John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ This is the true God and eternal life.

John 6:63
"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

2 Corinthians 3:6
who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Galatians 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.


#10

They are arguing in the links that I provided that eternal life speaks of the resurrection of the dead here on Earth for those who are saved. And that the damned do not possess an eternal soul.


#11

“For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: that they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh; but may live according to God, in the Spirit.” I Peter 4:6

This passage shows the immortality of the soul, since the Lord preached the gospel to the souls of the dead in Limbo. After his death, he “descended into hell” as the Apostles Creed teaches. Also a good case for the existence of Limbo!:smiley:


#12

The notion that the human soul survives death and is conscious seems to be supported by the interaction between King Saul and the dead prophet Samuel in 1 Samuel 28 in the Old Testament and in the New Testament in the interaction, witnessed by the apostles Peter, James, and John, between Jesus Christ and the dead prophets Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration in Matthew 17:1-8, Mark 9:2-8, and Luke 9:28-36. It is also supported by the story Jesus told in Luke 16:19-31 of the differing after-death experiences of a rich man and Lazarus, in which a conversation between the dead rich man and dead Abraham about the dead rich man’s living relatives is also featured, and in the scenes of heaven described in the book of Revelation. If you will accept them as Sacred Scripture, as Catholics do but some non-Catholics don’t, the notion that the human soul survives death and is conscious is also supported by Judas Maccabeus’ vision of the after-death activities of the high priest Onias and the prophet Jeremiah in 2 Maccabees 15:11-16, and by Sirach 48:14 where the after-death deeds of the prophet Elisha are briefly mentioned, perhaps a reference to 2 Kings 13:21.


#13

My mistake; only Moses is dead (Deut 34:5); Elijah was taken up by a whirlwind into heaven. (2 Kings 2:11).


#14

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