Thomas More Law Center files important case re. "hate crimes"

thomasmore.org/qry/page.taf?id=14

Court Challenge to Federal Hate Crimes Act filed by Three Pastors and Pro-Family Advocate.

This is an EXTREMELY important law case filed by what I regard as, at least basically, a Roman Catholic law center.

This is about Christian free speech becoming a federal prosecutable "hate crime."

Everyone should read this article and keep apprised on this case. I hope that magazine Culture Wars will write something on this and that I can, as a nonsubscriber, someone read it.

(The Thomas More Law Center is names after St. Thomas More, the 16th century Lord Chancellor who refusal to accept Kin Henry VIII's claim to be the supreme head of the Church of England ended his political career and led to his excution as a traitor. St. Thomas More is the patron saint of lawyers in the Catholic Church.)

It’s about time that something was done about the silencing of Christians by homosexuals! The “hate crimes” bill is nothing more than a way for making gays a protected species. What is never mentioned is the way that gays harass those who are working to stop their agenda. It’s perfectly “okay” for gays to spray those who are demonstrating peacefully for traditional marriage with weed killer and pepper spray, or yell obscenities at them. When they do it, it’s not a “hate crime”!

I don’t like the Thomas More Law Center. As a lawyer I think they have taken on screwy positions as to law and religion (like Ray Moore and the Ten Commandments on the courtroom wall) and they have lost a number of cases.

Further, unlike the ACLU, which has represented Catholics and dioceses, the More Center only gets involved with cases involving Roman Catholics or Christians. So, if they are protesting ‘hate crimes’ it is only from one angle. Moslems need not apply.

Religious liberty is for everyone but the Thomas More Center does not appear to accept this.

If you knew perhaps more about the ACLU, you would know that they very carefully pick and choose which cases they take, and the rare times when they defended Christians, it was for an ulterior motive, and nothing whatsoever to do with Christ and His message.

A law center may also pick and choose which cases they take, and if the Thomas More Law Center chooses to take only cases for Christians, I say a big “God bless you” to them.

The ACLU has spent most of its days attacking Christian values in the USA. They took God and prayer out of our schools as well as continually attack Christ and His gospel.


To me much of the real hate actions that are manifesting in our world now against precious human beings made in the image and likeness of God are really “love” actions by those who love and worship Lucifer, the light bearer, the prince of darkness, the Father of Lies.

I don’t have a problem with them being advocates for a group (Catholics/Christians) rather than for a principle. Just because they always argue in favor of Catholics/Christians, doesn’t mean they reject religious liberty for Muslims. They just don’t feel it’s their job to defend that issue.

Almost ANY case the ACLU takes is for an ulterior motive, rather than for the specific interests of the party they represent. The ACLU’s job isn’t to push Christ and his message. It’s to push and defend civil liberties as they interpret them.:shrug:

"The ACLU’s job isn’t to push Christ and his message. "

No, the ACLU’s job is not to push Christ and his message, it is much more to kill Christ again and again.

“It’s to push and defend civil liberties as they interpret them.”

Ah, there’s the rub.

My interpretation of liberty and bondage is…

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

That’s like saying that a person protests against racial discrimination only when his ethnic group is subjected to discrimination. The civil rights era was different than that.

Not to hijack this thread, but when the state of Connecticut tried to make the Bridgeport diocese register as a lobbyist, it was the ACLU which defended t it. And the bishop thanked the group.

And I do not believe the ACLU represented Madalyn Murray O’Hair when she got the Supreme Court to ban prayer in the public schools, but that is a small point.

ACLU is more about the leftist agenda. Thomas More is all about Catholic agenda and real freedom issues, as defined from a Christian point of view.

Quite naturally, I am more of a fan of the More Center than I am of the ACLU.

Well, I hope you believe in religious freedom for all religions.

The history of the left on such matter is actually very much worse.

So because the Muslim Legal Fund of America limits its focus to cases involving Muslims, or the Animal Legal Defense Fund doesn’t involve itself in abuse cases of humans, they are worthy of rebuke? These legal organizations, including Thomas More, all have their own missions. Just because they sometimes share philosophies or tangential interests, doesn’t mean they should spend time and resources actively involving themselves in cases outside their focus issues. Unless, in the words of Archie, they have “ulterior motives” where they think their involvement will benefit their goals.

**
I have a problem with a law office refusing to help someone solely based on their religion. ** Now, I’m not sure if the Muslim Legal Defense Fund does the same thing or not, but this thread is not about them.

Religious liberty is for all religions.

I agree that unless there is a conflict of interest, they should not outright refuse say a Muslim client. But in the absence of any hard evidence of this, it seems much more likely people know what Thomas More is all about, and don’t seek to hire them for Muslim cases. And if it does happen from time to time, they can probably get on the horn and direct them to well-qualified attorneys who have more experience dealing with Muslim cases.

[quote="Digitonomy, post:14, topic:185612"]
I agree that unless there is a conflict of interest, they should not outright refuse say a Muslim client.

[/quote]

They do.

Identity politics defines the national scene nowadays. Congressional Black Caucus is but one example of how this idea has come to the foreground. the last presidential Democratic primaries are but another, where th earguments were whether it would be better to have a woman or a black candidate.

Agree or disagree, that is just the way it is. Universal human rights that a Dr ML King fought for became redefined under the leftist agenda to be Women's Rights and Homosexual Rights and Minority rights.

The Civil Rights Movement of the sixties indeed has been redefined, most under the leftist leadership to be about special rights for groups of people, identity politcs if you will.

The conservative criticism of the ACLU mainly centers on the fact that it plays into this theme.

From the perspective of the Civil Rights Movement of the 1960's it is probably fair commentary to criticize the More Society for focusing only on their own group. However it does come off as being rather hypocritical for a supporter of the ACLU and anyone from the left side of the spectrum, neck deep in identity politics as they all now are, to criticize the More Society for fighting for minority rights for their own group. This is just how the politics of the age have been redefined.

Interesting comments, Daryl.

“The conservative criticism of the ACLU mainly centers on the fact that it plays into this theme.”

Well, I no longer like to classify myself as a “conservative.” I believe the left / right paradigm has simply been a tool to further manipulate and control us all.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

When we become believers and followers of Jesus, “identify politics” is just another way of the world. From the point we accept Christ, we become “Christians” and no other label matters.


I do not know much about what cases Thomas More Law Center takes or does not take, but in this particular matter of the “hate crime law”, it does seem that Christians, not Muslims, are being judged to be guilty of “hate crimes” by the simple practice of their religion.

I would think that a group of Muslim lawyers would be the best place for a Muslim to seek legal help, not only if accused of “hate crime” but also for any civil liberty violation.

The “hate crime law” is a 360 degree turn from traditional American Constitutional law and legal philosophy., and I believe Christians should do whatever they can to oppose this horrid law. All people in the USA will benefit, not just Christians.

Well, what about the conservative, Republican candidate for governor in IL, Adam Andrzejewski? A Polish-American living in the city with the second-largest Polish population in the world (after Warsaw) he was endorsed by Lech Walesa! Isn’t that identity politics by a right-winger?

And the leftists sure seem to more accepting of the various interests among the special interest groups. So the charge that the left’s ‘identity politics’ would make it hypocritical to criticize the More Society is misplaced. The More Society is not criticized for fighting for minority rights, it is criticized for not fighting for the larger aim, freedom of religion for all. Wouldn’t religious discrimination against Christians be averted by making sure their was no religious discrimination against any religion?

And the More Society also has a history of losing cases which is unmatched by any legal group I can think of.

This is an interesting philosophy. I tend to think that in regard to issues in this world, other labels still do matter. For instance, when given a choice I still pick the men’s room.

Closer to the meat of your argument,

[quote=Archie]The “hate crime law” is a 360 degree turn from traditional American Constitutional law and legal philosophy., and I believe Christians should do whatever they can to oppose this horrid law. All people in the USA will benefit, not just Christians.
[/quote]

Jesus never instructed us to involve ourselves in defending traditional American Constitutional law. In fact many Christians fully embrace your earlier sentiment, and abandon their involvement in politics. You’ve attached yourself to one side of a political argument, which happens to be the conservative side of the issue. I’m not sure why labeling it that way would be harmful.

[quote=Archie]I would think that a group of Muslim lawyers would be the best place for a Muslim to seek legal help, not only if accused of “hate crime” but also for any civil liberty violation.
[/quote]

This is not necessarily the case. The Muslim law firm may be less experienced in litigating the issues in question (which may be quite similar to what Thomas More litigates), there may not be a Muslim firm in the vicinity of the Muslim client, the only Muslim firm may have a conflict of interest, etc.

[quote="Archie, post:17, topic:185612"]
Interesting comments, Darryl.

"The conservative criticism of the ACLU mainly centers on the fact that it plays into this theme."

Well, I no longer like to classify myself as a "conservative." I believe the left / right paradigm has simply been a tool to further manipulate and control us all.

[/quote]

Oh, I think that there are very real differences between those who look to government for the answers and those who distrust government Modern day conservatism seek limits on government so that the ability to manipulate and control is lessened.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

When we become believers and followers of Jesus, "identify politics" is just another way of the world. From the point we accept Christ, we become "Christians" and no other label matters.

This is what I consider to have been the aim of the (liberal)civil rights movement, before Johnson, before it became hijacked by special interests and identity politics. It need not be a left/right issue at all, I agree, but this type of thinking on woman's rights and minority rights, and homosexual rights, special rights for minorities of all kinds, very much now defines the left wing of the political spectrum. It has made itself the dominant paradigm in law today.

I do not know much about what cases Thomas More Law Center takes or does not take, but in this particular matter of the "hate crime law", it does seem that Christians, not Muslims, are being judged to be guilty of "hate crimes" by the simple practice of their religion.

When the paradigm becomes 'minority rights', then to the extent that Christianity is still defined as the majority, there are no special rights being afforded to Christians. Minority rights are defined against the dominant paradigm, which is defined by the left as Christianity.
This is the irony that I was alluding to earlier. From my vantage point, it would seem that the More Society is merely following the paradigm of minority rights for themselves. 'We are all minorities now'.

It somewhat follows the example of the men's rights movement, at once an answer to, and a parody of, the woman's rights movement.

The left in general has trouble with this, for when everyone is a minority no one is a minority. They in effect become victims of their own success.

Marxist conflict models depend on there being a dominant power structure to be in conflict with, the Christian,white Anglo-saxon male capitalist one, to be precise. To the extent that this faction is no longer dominant in society, but is in effect self-defining as just another minority amongst many, the system that the left has set up becomes a parody of itself.

I would think that a group of Muslim lawyers would be the best place for a Muslim to seek legal help, not only if accused of "hate crime" but also for any civil liberty violation.

Well, so do Muslims. CAIR certainly understands how the game of Identity politics plays itself out in the legal arena. They are looking out for themselves, as one special interest group among many. Of course Muslim rights aim towards a very different kind of society of special rights for Muslims and special 'protections' for the dhimmis. To the extent that they are successful, others will not be.

The "hate crime law" is a 360 degree turn from traditional American Constitutional law and legal philosophy., and I believe Christians should do whatever they can to oppose this horrid law. All people in the USA will benefit, not just Christians.

American constitutional law and philosophy did not just arise as if by magic, big banging itself into existence as it were from the void. 1700 years of Christianity, itself developed out of Graeco-Roman philosophy and legalism, along with Hebrew ideals and morality, served as the bedrock for the whole system in the first place.
That is the ultimate irony here. To the extent that Thomas More Society fights for the special 'minority rights' of Catholic Christianity, it is really fighting for the freedom and rights of everybody. The ideals of freedom to believe, of individual freedom itself, of there being neither Greek nor Jew, nor male nor female, literally guarantee that the same freedoms apply to all of us, as our inherent, God-given rights. Ergo not even any legislature can legislate them into existence or out of existence. These rights come from the highest authority, as even the American constitution recognizes.

To the extent that they are effective then, the Thomas More legalists will not be exclusive, but inclusive, by the very definition of their Catholicism. If successful, their arguments will turn the current Marxist conflict paradigm 360 degrees back onto its head.

Leftist therefore have a vested interest in this particular minority rights group's failure.

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