# Time cannot be created

#102

No, laws of physics do not allow the universe to work. They just define how the universe evolve.

There is no metaphysical substrate. Particles are actual and they interact with each other.

I didn’t say that time cause. I said time allows. Perhaps it is better to say that time is required for any change, if that sounds better to you.

#103

So you agree that time exists at t=0? Then when it was created?

#104

I’m cool with that. However, you then turn from this (reasonable) explanation, and attempt to assert that at some time prior to the existence of the system, the variable that delimits and measures the system is already in place. That’s just bad science. The measure comes into existence when the thing to be measured comes into existence, not prior.

No, not really. What’s the “infinite regress”? (It only exists if you posit that time pre-exists creation – after all, if time itself has “coming into being” change, then it must be measured by something, no? And if so, then time must measure itself, or must itself be measured by something already in existence! Therefore, if your assertion is right, we fall into either an infinite loop or infinite regress. And therefore, your assertion must be in error.

Fine. So… what creates ‘time’?

#105

I don’t see infinite regress as a trap. For example, on the real line,you have the point zero, which can represent the present time t=0. then you have the positive numbers,which could represent the time t=1, say one hour from now. And you have the negative numbers, t= -1, which could represent the time one hour ago. And the line extends infinitely into the past and infinitely into the future and there is no logical contradiction, or mathematical trap, in positing this.

#106

Was there a point that nothing existed? We have a change when universe came into existence otherwise the act of creation is meaningless.

If time is created then there is a point at which it didn’t exist. Is that right?

Nothing.

#107

Time cannot extend into infinite past as it is required infinite waiting to reach from infinite past to now.

For what regards infinite regress, if time is created then we are dealing with a change. It can be shown that any change requires time therefore one needs time in order to create time. That leads into infinite regress.

#108

I don’t agree because it does not take an infinite waiting time to arrive at t=0 on the real line, even though it extends infinitely into the past which is modeled by the negative numbers There is no contradiction or mathematical trap with assuming the infinite regress of t from the zero point as we see from the real line. From any point of negative value, say -M, it will take you M units of time to reach the present, t=0. You don’t go back to infinity. It is just that for any time in the past -M, there will always be a further time -(M+1) which is at a greater distance from t=0 than -M.

#109

I agree with you on this that time has a starting point which is not at infinite past.

#110

I should point out, creation ex nihilo, does not mean that the universe changed from one state to another. Non-existence is not a thing, or a state, or a mode, etc. Therefore, for the universe to be created from nothing, does not entail change. Prior to the creation of the universe, time=/= -1, but time=0, meaning it was non-existent, but after the universe began, time=1.

#111

I hope that’s not a trick question.

Yes, creation occurred, and so it has a ‘beginning’. No, there was no “time” with which to measure that beginning, because there was nothing to be measured.

Here is where your thought begins to become imprecise, and therefore, leads you into error.
A change is a change from something to something else. There is no ‘something’ that exists ‘prior’ to the universe, and therefore, you cannot measure anything with respect to the nothingness. It would be like attempting to divide by zero – it is undefined.

Time came into existence along with the coming-into-existence of the universe. Correct.

Fine. (No, not really, but for the sake of argument. )

If so, and if the raison d’etre of time is to measure the change in things… what does it measure if nothing exists?

Moreover, how do you posit its existence – as the one ‘necessary’ being?

#112

Was there a point that only God existed?

#113

If you mean a point in time, then the question itself is invalid. God is without time and space, without beginning and without end.

#114

You didn’t answer my question. Was there a point that nothing existed?

To me nothing to something is also a change. It is problematic to think that there was no change due to act of creation.

I think we agree on the fact that one need time for any change.

No, time is not measure of change. Time is required for any change.

Because the very act of creation is a change too.

No. I think that God is bounded to time too.

#115

We can reach to the point to show that that point that only God existed is a point in time. Again was there a point that only God existed? If the answer is yes then there is another point that God and creation exist. This, God -> God+creation, is a change. I can show that change is not possible without time: We have a change in a system therefore we have two states related to change which are different. These two states cannot be at the same point since the state of system becomes ill-defined. Therefore these two states should be placed on different points. There is also a directionality in change because one state (first state) comes before another state (second state), this is another property of change. Up to here we realize that we need a variable with at least two points which the first point comes before the second point. There should however be a duration between these two points otherwise the second state will never take place. This variable is therefore time.

#116

And again, the question itself is invalid. And again, creation ex nihilo, is not something changing from one state to another. It only suffices to say that God was, when there was nothing else, without asking how. Of course, because we operate at our own finite level, being unlike God, we cannot know of these things in detail from reason alone, but only in general.

I suggest taking the time to read this first:

#117

I really did answer your question. However, the way you framed it up was in words that imply a temporal framework. I’m not gonna fall into that trap, my friend.

Yes, the universe was created. No, it did not exist eternally, as something causally prior to God.

And this is why I’m (patiently) informing you that your metaphysics are in a shambles. To equate “something->something else” with “nothing->something” is sloppy and inaccurate.

Not the “coming-into-existence” of the universe, though. There, we disagree, although you provide no rationale for your point of view.

Again: “'change from something to something else is distinct from ‘change from nothing to something’.” Until you address this distinction, your assertions will continue to fail.

It’s a “coming-into-being”.

So… you think time “pre-exists” God?

You’ve got a serious philosophical problem, then: if God (who is being itself, and who is omni) does not pre-exist time, then who ‘creates’ God? And, if time pre-exists God, then He does not fit the definition of God (all omni), so you move the goalposts and undefine God, which doesn’t hold up.

In order for your assertions to work, you have to raise ‘time’ above what it is, and lower ‘God’ below who He is. It just doesn’t hold water. Sorry.

#118

So what!

Any way, what is the time elapsed when the state of motion of the body changes from rest to movement?

You insist that you could argue that there is no change without time. In physics, it is customary to distinguish between rest and movement as two different states of motion of bodies. Obviously, if a body is at rest and then it starts moving (for whatever cause), that is a change in its state of motion. But no time is required for this change. While for any change in position, or for any change of speed, or for any change of acceleration, a finite time elapses, a change from rest to motion takes no time. Therefore, your idea that every change involves time is false.

With this, you are left without basis to argue that the change from non-existence to existence involves time.

#119

Why the question is invalid?

If there was not a change then universe has existed since its beginning.

In fact we can know a lot from reasoning if you follow me.

I read what you suggested but I don’t understand how it is related to this topic.

#120

I cannot help you if you do not want to accept the fact: There was a change if the universe was created.

They are different but we have change in both case.

Was there any change due to the act of creation? If not then the universe simply has existed from its starting. If yes then my reasoning follows.

I distinguish the difference but there is a change in both case.

Yes, from nothing.

I think that God and time coexist.

There is no problem here. There is no relation between what I am saying and what you are suggesting (bold part).

God simply lives in time. You can have all omni but omni-present in all time. By the way God decide, doesn’t He? For that you need to embed God in time.

#121

Is there any difference between a suspended body and a body with speed of zero but free?

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