To Max Kolbe


#1

Max, I know you heard my story on the site we conversed at. You seem unable to log in properly over there- so I assume you are “guest” in a few places. Hopefully, you understand me a bit better now. I saw your response and appreciate your words. For those of you wondering what we were talking about, he was asking me why I adhere to sola scriptura, and am protestant. Here is what I sent him.

Max,
I’m convinced that scripture saves, IF put into practice. I’m convinced that men are all sinners in need of a savior, and we have that in Christ.

I have faith in Christ, but not faith in men. I have faith that scripture- applied scripture- will lead nobody to Hell.

I am 2nd generation Spaniard. My great grandparents were Catholic (of course) and came here in the 1920s. They came to a steel town outside of Pittsburgh where the local Catholic church was controlled by the Irish and Italians. The Spanish immigrants were not exactly welcomed, especially not the poor ones- like my family at that time.

A house fire killed my great, great uncle as an infant- and the local priest, father McCashum, denied him catholic burial- simply because of the poor tithes of my then churchgoing roman catholic great grandparents (who were farmers.)

It was an outrage to the several hundred local Spanish immigrants, most of whom stopped going to that church that very day, and were welcomed into a small Presby church in the area of their villiage. The old generation Spaniards still alive in my town still refer to him as “Father Give-Me-Cash” instead of “father McCashum”

I have seen the sins of this same local Roman Catholic church in my youth, sins that have destroyed boyhood friends of mine and ruined their lives. Those friends are now of to places unknown, making sure they never step foot in my town again. Two turned to satanism, a foolish, idiotic “protest” against Catholicism. I found out later this same priest my town had in its RC church had struck in other small RC churches… as I found out years later from a hockey teammate of mine about 30 miles away from where I grew up. He quizzed me during a dinner at his house. He asked what town I was from, in the middle of the team cookout, I told him. He asked if I ever heard of a certain priest in my town in the mid 80s. I told him yes. He got all wierd, and later pulled me into a side room and cried (You don’t expect defensemen to cry, especially on the shoulders of a goalie…) I asked what was wrong. He told me that he was abused by this man in his youth, long before this man was transferred to my town, years ago.

This friend will never set foot in a church again (so he claims) be it Catholic or Protestant. That awful Priest died in the mid 1990s, incidentally.

I forgive the local RC church though, and I don’t blame Roman Catholicism as a whole for what happened to my friends. I just think that it goes to show you that men- mere humans- cannot be entrusted with the power of God, as they are all sinners who will corrupt it for their own devices, and have, and will continue to do so- be they Prot. or Cath.

Sin is non-denominational.

That’s where my belief in sola-scriptura was formed. Not by reformers. Not by theologians, but by some who became human speed bumps in the path of wicked men entrusted with a legacy they abused for their own devices.

And after all this, it breaks my heart to hear Roman Catholics tell Protestants that their beliefs aren’t good enough, or they are led astray, or they are wrong. The RC church needs to apologize for many abuses of power, both at the top and bottom- humbly, and honestly- and lower its shield of alleged infallability.

I also agree with Seeker on the big picture, that a time will come when we will need to gather under one banner that merely states “Christians”. But I also think that it would serve Roman Catholicism to use a bit more compassion with those who have been hurt, or protestants in general.


#2

I posted that over here so you folks can see that not all protestantism is because of some overly-scholarly pursuit of a “Purer Way” of some sort.

Sometimes, we are pushed into it, and left with little choice. I know my great grandparents were, and they were very hurt. You Roman Catholics know how much it would take for old-school Roman Catholic Spaniards to walk away from Roman Catholicism, but it sure happened.

I don’t judge all Roman Catholic churches by my local one. As a matter of fact, I’ve met the current priest, and he seems like a good man. So I’ve forgiven the one in my own town (which is the one of my ancestors, and the one that had the abuses I outlined.)

My adherence to Sola Scriptura is a personal decision, simply because I don’t trust man in general. Like I said, sin and abuses are non-denominational.

It just really, REALLY hurts to hear you folks talk in such a way that would indicate that all Protestants are hellbound know-it-alls. I think of my great grandparents and feel awful that you are so quick to condemn us. (At least some of you… the majority of you aren’t like that.)

I’m guilty of being harsh at you folks myself at times, and for that I am sorry. I’m a sinner like the rest of you. One in need of forgiveness.

But maybe we undertand each other a bit better now.

Max- I appreciate your kind response too- over at that other site.


#3

[quote=ScottH] And after all this, it breaks my heart to hear Roman Catholics tell Protestants that their beliefs aren’t good enough, or they are led astray, or they are wrong… (snip)…But I also think that it would serve Roman Catholicism to use a bit more compassion with those who have been hurt, or protestants in general.
[/quote]

I am very sorry to hear of your family’s experiences with the humaness of the Catholic Church. I agree that there are many priests who have abused their positions and I also believe that they will answer to God for this.

I pray that you and your family will be healed from the hurts you have experienced.

i disagree however, with your premise on sola scriptura… Scripture after all does not teach sola scriptura… so if you truly believe in Sola Scriptura, then you are rejecting the very scripture you claim to place your trust.

Also, your last statement, which I quoted above, was somewhat funny to me… Basically you are saying that Catholics should not be so active in protesting “Protestants”? Is that correct?

Finally, I wonder why you didnt also reject the protestant church for its many abuses of power, murder, injustice and prejudice against Catholics? Why also, you didnt call for them to apologize in your letter? Seems to me that your throwing stones from a glass house when you speak of the sins of the church, if those things were truly part of your decision, how could you turn to Protestantism, which is guilty of the same sins? I feel that there may be more at work here?

In Christ,
Brandon


#4

I’m convinced that scripture saves

That’s idolotry. Christ saves.

Sorry, couldn’t resist.

I have faith in Christ, but not faith in men. I have faith that scripture- applied scripture- will lead nobody to Hell.

Not just applied, but correctly interpreted.

You have faith in yourself to intepret it correctly without a teacher. You, like the Ethiopian in Acts 8 need a teacher. Christ had a teaching ministry. He didn’t write a textbook and say figure it out.


#5

Hello Scott,

I hear what you are saying friend, I am denying these are real scars that run deep and impressions that are hard to part with. I pray for your friends who been hurt and I pray gainst the abuse of power in our faiths. But to be fair, these abuses are not simply kin to the Catholic faith. Ex-protestants have similar stories equally gripping and have new life and faith in the arms of the Catholic church. Catholics NOW more than ever are feeling very downtrodden and very persecuted.

There are literally THOUSANDS of anti-catholic, bible only evangelical websites with destructive stories that grow more destructive as they are passed along from generation to generation. In my journey to the Catholic church, I thank God for men and woman ( especially non-religeous) that were able to give me true history and perspective. And when the smoke cleared only of fractions of those fables held water. But they continue to be foisted and propagtaed to the masses, filling the wallets of *fat evangelical pastors *world wide!

You see, hatred of Rome has made folks alot of money and continues to do so. Once again all the *wackos are emerging from their dens *to CASH IN on our beloved Pope and foist lies and conspiracy theories on the unsuspecting and ignorant. I have to tell you Scott and maybe you have sensed this, I think that the doctrine of scripture alone is so destructive and dangerous that I cannot help counter it wherever it may creep up. It is responsible for countless thousands of demoninations, deadly cults and strange sects all claiming some sort of truth. I believe the doctrine tears Christ body usunder by giving each man the authority that was given to Peter first and then the apostle. Now I knew coming into the Catholic church that there were and *are *issues, the kingdom is made of the wicked and the good. We serve side by side with the Judas’s and it will be so until the end. Traitors within the ranks who want to betray Jesus and crush His church. I am fully aware of these things. I think one question we always have to ask ourselves is this: Is Christ divided? I am not talking about traitors and evil men within who cause scandel, I am talking about the sctructure of his body from the head down. The thing I love about the Catholic church and that I came to see is that it truely is (structurally) a body, an entity capable of faciliatating the very spirit of Christ. Church history agrees that it was this way in the beginning (Council of Jerusalem Acts 15) & it was after the death of the Apostles and to this day remains a body. Not invisible (a city on a hill cannot be hidden) but a REAL body moving and living SACRAMENTAllY in the world. I always struggled inwardly as a protestant with the concept of the “body of Christ” because it did not behave like a body. It behaved more like a collection of independant body parts, not with fluid movement as our own bodies do. Well yes , but of course it’s the “invisible body of Christ” on earth! This I could not reconcille with my bible.

The Catholic church started out much like the nomadic people of Israel. A small band of the chosen few, the disciples/apostles, then came a Tent of Meeting with Moses, then a Tabernacle and than a Temple with kings and queens all the trappings of royalty that the Davidic kingdom had to offer. But…God did not abandon his Kingdom because it grew and became more like a body with stucture. Even when evil men ascended the ranks. People always want to argue this point with me that God could not and would not embody something with so much glitz and prestige…and my answer is “why not?” he has done it in the past, he cannot do it again?

Scott I am truley* indebted *to my protestant brothers and sisters for reaching out to me and inviting me on this great journey. I still have wonderful beautiful friends who are very godly and very convinced they are serving God the best they know how. I applaud them for that. We are all accountable to be honest in our hearts and consciences. That is why I like to dialouge about these issues. I made a deal with God, if *I KNOW *beyond a shadow of a doubt that something is wrong and my conscience tells me so, I cannot continue with it I have an obligaton before God to drop it. I became itellectually convinced my sola-scriptura ways defied logic and reason, the very bible in my hands struck it down and what a stange twist of irony!

(Cont)


#6

I wondered why I came to this website today www.talkingtruth.com and almost said “screw it” this is no good. But wait, I think we are all called to face eah other and to reconcile our hatreds. Of cousre I am going to defend my blessed Mother and my church when it’s under attack, to do less my conscience would condemn me, but…I want to extend mercy and forgivesness on behalf of me, my brothers and sisters and the my church. You and verybody else hear are not the enemy, there is a real who thrives on divsion and hatred and one day we will all be accountable before a mighty God for our love in this life.

Peace in our Lord - Max


#7

[quote=SDA2RC]I am very sorry to hear of your family’s experiences with the humaness of the Catholic Church. I agree that there are many priests who have abused their positions and I also believe that they will answer to God for this.

I pray that you and your family will be healed from the hurts you have experienced.

i disagree however, with your premise on sola scriptura… Scripture after all does not teach sola scriptura… so if you truly believe in Sola Scriptura, then you are rejecting the very scripture you claim to place your trust.

Also, your last statement, which I quoted above, was somewhat funny to me… Basically you are saying that Catholics should not be so active in protesting “Protestants”? Is that correct?

Finally, I wonder why you didnt also reject the protestant church for its many abuses of power, murder, injustice and prejudice against Catholics? Why also, you didnt call for them to apologize in your letter? Seems to me that your throwing stones from a glass house when you speak of the sins of the church, if those things were truly part of your decision, how could you turn to Protestantism, which is guilty of the same sins? I feel that there may be more at work here?

In Christ,
Brandon
[/quote]

Unfortunately Brandon, I am the only one in my family that even calls themselves a Christian currently. That has less to do with the RC church than it REALLY has to do with post-modernism.

I do totally agree with you on protestant churches having many flaws too. The one I attend has welcomed me though and been kind. Just like anything else, its the luck of the draw.

But you see Brandon- your points about protestantism are absolutely true. Abuses are rampan there too. In each case, they are breaking scripture with each abuse. So- what do we have-? Corruption within the human race after the fall of man.

That doesn’t necessarily go against sola scriptura. That’s a condemnation of mankind.


#8

[quote=ScottH]That doesn’t necessarily go against sola scriptura. That’s a condemnation of mankind.
[/quote]

Scott,
Precisely!! It is the sinful nature of mankind that causes these pains, not Christ or the Church he founded. I am very glad you are welcomed into your protestant fellowship, however, Christ called us to follow truth, and prove all things, not to just go where the feelings are warm and fuzzy. The people at my old protestant congregation were much more personably and friendly to me than those at the RCC parishes I have attended (which have only been a few). But I was not commanded by Christ to follow nice friendly people, i was commanded to follow Christ. I truly believe that Satan attacks the Catholic Church and those in it more fiercly because it was founded by Christ, therefore you may experience more of these people and hurts. (disclaimer, this is my opinion only)

Scott, do you sincerely desire to follow everything Christ said, or right now, are you looking for something just to ease the pain you and your family have experienced?

In christ,
Brandon


#9

I know you guys have several pages of disputation of sola scriptura. I’ve seen them. Some points I can understand, some I just say “Well, its still better than trusting men.”

Some of the boys who went to the local Catholic school who were my age may never trust Christian catholic men again. How could you or I tell them that they are wrong after their experiences? Will they be condemned for it? I would hope not.

These boys (now men) should have been contacted by the church when the abuses became known, years later- at least as some form of outreach.

Perhaps I should be thankful I was already protestant at that time, thus no contact with this priest like the others had?

How can anyone make sense of such a situation?


#10

Max, you are right. Anti-Catholicism runs rampant. Anti-ANYTHING-Christian runs rampant. As for the fight between RCs and Protestants, there’s many MANY wrongs and poor choices of words on both sides.

I will not question any of your salvations, if you all kindly don’t question mine. Is that a deal? Maybe we can at least understand each other from there and have dialogue.


#11

[quote=ScottH]I know you guys have several pages of disputation of sola scriptura. I’ve seen them. Some points I can understand, some I just say “Well, its still better than trusting men.”

Some of the boys who went to the local Catholic school who were my age may never trust Christian catholic men again. How could you or I tell them that they are wrong after their experiences? Will they be condemned for it? I would hope not.

These boys (now men) should have been contacted by the church when the abuses became known, years later- at least as some form of outreach.

Perhaps I should be thankful I was already protestant at that time, thus no contact with this priest like the others had?

How can anyone make sense of such a situation?
[/quote]

We cant make sense of Sin, just like we cant make sense of God’s grace. It still seems to me that your confusing sin with doctrine.

Truth is not changed based on whether you were abused or hurt by a priest. As painful as their experience is, God’s truth does not change.

Scott… right now I am not as worried about the men you knew, (which is just speculation for me since I do not know them) as I am about you! What if your wrong? What are the consequences of rejecting the Church Christ founded…

Brandon


#12

[quote=ScottH]I know you guys have several pages of disputation of sola scriptura. I’ve seen them. Some points I can understand, some I just say “Well, its still better than trusting men.”

Some of the boys who went to the local Catholic school who were my age may never trust Christian catholic men again. How could you or I tell them that they are wrong after their experiences? Will they be condemned for it? I would hope not.

These boys (now men) should have been contacted by the church when the abuses became known, years later- at least as some form of outreach.

Perhaps I should be thankful I was already protestant at that time, thus no contact with this priest like the others had?

How can anyone make sense of such a situation?
[/quote]

I am going to tell you something and it is my opinion so take it as you will. I believe a time is coming when God will pour out grace on his people and this will not be something man will create, God will do it and he will come for a pure and spottless bride. It is an interior sense and much of the pain and division caused by men will be healed before His second coming. I believe (don’t get your hackles up Scott) the agent of preperation is the Blessed Mother of God who has a vocation much like John the Baptist to (make staight the way of the Lord). Again, just my opinion, i have to get to work. You fella’s have a blessed night and sleep in the peace of Christ!


#13

Obviously, I would want to follow everything Christ said. I take communion, i’ve been baptized. Just not at your churches.

But I have yet to be convinced that one church is as good or bad as another (as long as they follow scripture.)

I know some of you are cringing. I’m sorry to dissappoint you. I hope you’ll still accept my fellowship with you and the love of Christ we share.

I teach creation apologetics to kids that worship the Discovery Channel instead of seeing God. I’m invovled in a ministry not tied to the church I worship at. I try to help kids of all denominations with origins (some Catholic.) I don’t encourage anyone to switch churches. That’s not what I do.


#14

[quote=Max Kolbe]I am going to tell you something and it is my opinion so take it as you will. I believe a time is coming when God will pour out grace on his people and this will not be something man will create, God will do it and he will come for a pure and spottless bride. It is an interior sense and much of the pain and division caused by men will be healed before His second coming. I believe (don’t get your hackles up Scott) the agent of preperation is the Blessed Mother of God who has a vocation much like John the Baptist to (make staight the way of the Lord). Again, just my opinion, i have to get to work. You fella’s have a blessed night and sleep in the peace of Christ!
[/quote]

Who am I to dispute you. My gut feeling is that soon (soon being within the next 100 years) things will get so bad for Christians in general, that Protestants and Catholics will seek unity and some kind of forgiveness of one another- simply out of necessity and survival.

The spiritual state of many of those within both protestant and catholic churches is sad in many churches. I am appalled to see that many left-wing Catholics were dissappointed in Benedict being nominated- simply because they want certain “reforms” towards liberalism. This is common in Prot. churches too, of course.

I rallied with many good Roman Catholics for Terri Shiavo. We sure didn’t talk about our few differences during that time. You couldn’t tell the difference between us when our zeals matched…

…as it always should for the gospel of life.


#15

[quote=ScottH]Obviously, I would want to follow everything Christ said. I take communion, i’ve been baptized. Just not at your churches.

But I have yet to be convinced that one church is as good or bad as another (as long as they follow scripture.)

[/quote]

Hmmm…your not convinced that the church that Christ founded is better than the others?

Also, Christ didnt just command us to take communion, he commanded us to take his Body and Blood, most protestant churches do not believe this, and cannot consencrate it even if they do. Do you follow the teachings of Christ on authority? Do you belong to the Church that Christ built on Peter, and Hell would never prevail against? If so, can you trace that back to Peter? Its not just about taking communion and baptizing, it is a lot more than that… for example, we are commanded to hold fast to tradition, both written(scripture) and oral… what oral traditions do you hold fast to? Do you obey the authority of those who are the successors to the apostles? To Peter?

If you truly want to follow all the Christ says, then you will find your way back home to the Catholic Church. We will welcome you with open arms!

Brandon


#16

Brandon,
If I am punished for going to the wrong church- despite my love for God and following his scripture, then so be it. That will be my punishment to bear -should it occur.

“He who believeth in me shall have everlasting life.”

Lets hope that holds true.


#17

[quote=ScottH]Brandon,
If I am punished for going to the wrong church- despite my love for God and following his scripture, then so be it. That will be my punishment to bear -should it occur.

“He who believeth in me shall have everlasting life.”

Lets hope that holds true.
[/quote]

Good Morning Scott,
I agree, any punishment for willfully rejecting Christ’s church would be yours to bear… There is much more than mere belief required for everlasting life, I am sure you know that. The problem is not just going to the wrong church, it is rejection of the only True Church, the only Church Christ founded. Christian faith and the exhortation to “prove all things” requires us to do just that, to prove that the Church your attending, or that I am attending, is the Church Christ founded. Have you? The answer is serious, with serious ramifications…

Scott, I am not saying your lost or going to hell or anything like that, I can’t, only God can. What I am saying is that I know God requires certain things from us, more than just going to a place that gives us warm fuzzies. There are hard questions and answers that must be dealt with in following God. I just have not seen you deal with these in your post. I would like to know how you deal with them.

In Christ,
Brandon


#18

[quote=SDA2RC]Good Morning Scott,
I agree, any punishment for willfully rejecting Christ’s church would be yours to bear… There is much more than mere belief required for everlasting life, I am sure you know that. The problem is not just going to the wrong church, it is rejection of the only True Church, the only Church Christ founded. Christian faith and the exhortation to “prove all things” requires us to do just that, to prove that the Church your attending, or that I am attending, is the Church Christ founded. Have you? The answer is serious, with serious ramifications…

Scott, I am not saying your lost or going to hell or anything like that, I can’t, only God can. What I am saying is that I know God requires certain things from us, more than just going to a place that gives us warm fuzzies. There are hard questions and answers that must be dealt with in following God. I just have not seen you deal with these in your post. I would like to know how you deal with them.

In Christ,
Brandon
[/quote]

Brandon… heh heh- I’m a Christian who worships at a Presbyterian church. You won’t find “warm and fuzzies” there. Actually, it can be quite snore-inducing if you aren’t careful! We, like Lutherans, seem to pride ourselves on being downright boring in terms of ceremony and “properness”.


#19

[font=Arial][size=2]Men cannot corrupt the Catholic Church. Men can only be corrupted by satan. The actions of this priest were reprehensible. Satan corrupted him, then used him to corrupt others. One thing that pleases satan the most is to get people to leave the Catholic Church. Spreading lies and mis-truths about the Catholic Church in the form of anti-Catholicism is also an example of satan working through people. My brother-in-law and best friend was born a brethren and raised baptist. We have been having discussions regarding Catholic vs Baptist teachings for about two years now. He is very knowledgeable about his roots. He has come to a point where he rejects the divisions that the reformation has caused. He accepts and believes in the Real Presence and the other sacraments of the Church. He accepts that Mary is the mother of God. He believes that the angels, saints, and the Blessed Mother are praying with us. In other words, he is Catholic. However the rest of his family have not experienced this divine conversion of the heart, and so he remains in the baptist church. It is tearing him apart. It is very difficult for him because there are some people close to him who are anti-Catholic. You see, there is a difference between non-Catholic vs anti-Catholic and non-protestant vs anti-protestant. Anti means hatred. Anti-Catholicism is the last acceptable prejudice in this country, and it is very sad indeed. But satan smiles from ear to ear. smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_3_4.gif [/size][/font]


#20

Hey, can I use what you said, esp that last line?:thumbsup: I absolutely stink at apologetics, and I can use all the help I can get.


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