To Muslims


#1

Hello all, what is the problem about the idea of God taking a human body yet remaining God? what are the problems from Islamic point of view? is it how can God take a material form? or how can God take a form of something He created? thank you.


#2

Hello,

Simply we attribute to God what he attributes to himself. We deny him what he denies of himself. God never said that he would take a human form and become a human and become crucified.

God is above human faults are deficiencies. he doesnt need to eat food to survive. He doesnt need to go to the bathroom. He doesnt need to pray to somebody else. And certainly he doesnt need to get tortured to be able to forgive peoples sins.

I think you should contemplate the opposite question. Why would God need to do all this?

I personally see a more powerful God of having an ability to forgive sins without having to put his wrath on some innocent sacrifice.

Its illogical that i would kill my beloved son or daughter to give a message to the evil people who done me wrong that i forgive them by putting my wrath on my innocent son or daughter or else i wouldnt have been able to forgive them.

Its also illogical to make the sacrifice go through torture one time when evilness has been through humans since the begining of time. Jesus in Christianity has been tortured and crucified. Ok well probably millions have also been tortured and crucified as well. Even more brutally and horribly than Jesus have. How can be a minor torture atone for horrible suffering that was even more horrible and happened Millions of times before , at the same time and after this attonement happened?!

And if God knew that he is gonna have his son back after 3 days then where is the sacrifice in that ?!!!

The sacrifice as i understand it is to be powerless after its occurence.

Its no sacrifice if you give your whole money to charity knowing that if you give it then you will be reimbursed again. There is no uncertainity and thus your real sacrifice is probably having your son sleep far away from home for 3 days !!!

Its also confusing how that jesus told people that he isnt God and yet Christianity claims that he is God. He clearly denied the man who came and told him good master and he told him not to call him good because only God is good.

The above means that he isnt God. Plain and simple

One last thing is that Christianity as a dogma needs to be implanted . This whole sacrifice Logic and original sin + 3 persosns in one God in which one of them was praying to oanother yet separate and equal is just doesnt come by default to the human mind!!! In My opinion the most powerful proof of its incorrectness is that people generally get confused by it .

You need to bend over backwards so hard to be able to remotely believe in the Christian Dogma.

Thats my opinion,

salam


#3

God can do anything he wants to do. He’s not limited by what you think he should and should not do.


#4

#5

Its also illogical to make the sacrifice go through torture one time when evilness has been through humans since the begining of time.

am not sure i understood your question but Jesus’ sacrifice is not a temporary one sacrifice. It’s a sacrifice for all times.

And if God knew that he is gonna have his son back after 3 days then where is the sacrifice in that ?!!!

being tortured, being put on a cross, and taking the humanity’s sin upon his shoulders when he himself is sinless is no sacrifice?what do you call what Abraham did? a sacrifice no?yet Jesus endured much worse, and you say it was no sacrifice?when you give yourself freely instead of your brother, isn’t this a sacrifice?

The sacrifice as i understand it is to be powerless after its occurence.

a sacrifice is to pay the price for someone else. Abraham’s son lived after the whole thing, can you say Abraham did not sacrify?then why do we imitate him each year?

Its no sacrifice if you give your whole money to charity knowing that if you give it then you will be reimbursed again. There is no uncertainity and thus your real sacrifice is probably having your son sleep far away from home for 3 days !!!

so Abraham made no sacrifice according to you? the sacrifice is not the resurrection, the sacrifice is dying as if you are a sinful man when you are sinless, to save others. That is, giving your life as a FIDYA for others.

Its also confusing how that jesus told people that he isnt God and yet Christianity claims that he is God.

Jesus quoted things said by God in the OT and attributed them to Himself. Jesus did things ONLY God can do.Jesus pointed to Himself when all previous prophets pointed to God.You’ve got to understand Jesus’ words from a Jewish persepective. That\s why Jews understood pretty well what He meant and wanted to kill him for making himself God. You don need to say " Hey i am God" in order for a Jew to understand. You need to do and say what ONLY God can do or say in order for a Jew to understand.

He clearly denied the man who came and told him good master and he told him not to call him good because only God is good.

i don’t think a Christian usually takes this passage as a proof for Jesus’ divinity though it can be taken if taken from a different perspective. Furthermore, Jesus did say I Am the GOOD shepheard, something said by God in the OT.

One last thing is that Christianity as a dogma needs to be implanted . This whole sacrifice Logic and original sin + 3 persosns in one God in which one of them was praying to oanother yet separate and equal is just doesnt come by default to the human mind!!! In My opinion the most powerful proof of its incorrectness is that people generally get confused by it .

we can discuss this a bit later when we are done with the OP.

Thank you for the reply :slight_smile: i did not expect it to be that long and diverse but i tried to answer as much as possible. I’d appreciate it if we focus on God taking a material form idea . thx again :slight_smile:


#6

{ **فَلَمَّا قَضَىٰ مُوسَى ٱلأَجَلَ وَسَارَ بِأَهْلِهِ آنَسَ مِن جَانِبِ ٱلطُّورِ نَاراً قَالَ لأَهْلِهِ ٱمْكُثُوۤاْ إِنِّيۤ آنَسْتُ نَاراً لَّعَلِّيۤ آتِيكُمْ مِّنْهَا بِخَبَرٍ أَوْ جَذْوَةٍ مِّنَ ٱلنَّارِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَصْطَلُونَ **}
{ فَلَمَّآ أَتَاهَا نُودِيَ مِن شَاطِىءِ ٱلْوَادِي ٱلأَيْمَنِ فِي ٱلْبُقْعَةِ ٱلْمُبَارَكَةِ مِنَ ٱلشَّجَرَةِ أَن يٰمُوسَىٰ إِنِّيۤ أَنَا ٱللَّهُ رَبُّ ٱلْعَالَمِينَ }

[28.29] So when Musa had fulfilled the term, and he journeyed with his family, he perceived on this side of the mountain a fire. He said to his family: Wait, I have seen a fire, maybe I will bring to you from it some news or a brand of fire, so that you may warm yourselves.
[28.30] And when he came to it, a voice was uttered from the right side of the valley in the blessed spot of the bush, saying: O Musa! surely I am Allah, the Lord of the worlds.

{ **إِذْ رَأَى نَاراً فَقَالَ لأَهْلِهِ ٱمْكُثُوۤاْ إِنِّيۤ آنَسْتُ نَاراً لَّعَلِّيۤ آتِيكُمْ مِّنْهَا بِقَبَسٍ أَوْ أَجِدُ عَلَى ٱلنَّارِ هُدًى **}
[20.10] When he saw fire, he said to his family: Stop, for surely I see a fire, haply I may bring to you therefrom a live coal or find a guidance at the fire.
[20.11] So when he came to it, a voice was uttered: O Musa:
[20.12] Surely I am your Lord,

or

but when his Lord manifested His glory to the mountain He made it crumble and Musa fell down in a swoon (7:143)

We see God in the Quran manifesting Himself in a mountain, in a fire and in a tree.

Are these “things” better than a human being? the human being about whom God said in the Quran:

We have indeed created man in the best of moulds. (Al-Tin 95:4)

Abu Hurairah –may Allah be pleased with him- reported that the Prophet –Peace be upon him- said, “Indeed Allah –Glorified and Exalted be He- created Adam in his image.” (Muslim 4731, Ahmad 7941

So why Meedo did you say that humans are deficient when God said we are made in the BEST OF MOULDS?

So why would God manifest His glory in a mountain, in a tree, in a fire, and not in a human being created in the best of moulds and without sin?


#7

Hello again Meedo :slight_smile:

While waiting for a reply to elaborate further on the OP question, i’d like to talk about salvation.I got time right now so i posted. Don’t want to bombard you with posts lol but it just happened.

[3.193] Our Lord! surely we have heard a preacher calling to the faith, saying: Believe in your Lord, so we did believe; Our Lord! forgive us therefore our faults, **and cover our evil deeds **and make us die with the righteous.

As we can see, forgiveness AND covering up. Better in Arabic : KAFFIR 3anna.

In Christianity, God did cover our deeds. God KAFFARA 3anna that’s why Jesus is said to be the Kaffara 3an zunubina.

Only God can cover up our faults because a sinner cannot do it since we need a faultless one to cover it up. Jesus is faultless, a “lamb” without blemish.

فدلّ هذا على أن هذه السنة مضت بفعل إبراهيم عليه السلام حيث إن أصل الذبح كان [size=]فداءً لإسماعيل عليه السلام من الذبح.[/size]

ولهذا قال ابن القيم رحمه الله وغيره من أهل العلم إن أصل مشروعية الذبح في الأضاحي والهدي إن أصل مشروعيته هو[size=] فداء النفس، والمقصود من ذلك المنة بما عوّض الله جل وعلا إبراهيم عليه السلام عن ذبح ولده وقرة عينه بذبح الكبش، وما اختص الله جل وعلا إسماعيل أيضا به من الامتنان والفضل.[/size]

As we see, the Fida2 idea is not alien to Islam; sacrifices are FIDA 3an al nafs.

Allah said in Quran that He substituted Abraham’s son with a GREAT sacrifice. Is a ram something GREAT, Meedo? Great is one of the 99 names of Allah.

If you break my Play Station ( 200$ let;s say), can you come and tell me : sorry, you can take my doll instead? no, you must give me something equivalent.

Is a ram equivalent to a human being? are you worth a ram? it must be something equivalent to you which pays your price, and must be without blemish : that is, Jesus.

[5.32] For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our apostles came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.

the Bible says the same : we all died in Christ and we are all alive in Him, the man who was sinless yet crucified. It is as if the old humanity died in Christ, and new humanity resurrected with Him.

Be well :slight_smile:


#8

Meedo?Anyone?


#9

Salaam TheKing;

God is the Creator; from Him came everything that exists. If Jesus is God, it also means that God created Himself. Jesus is the product or what his mother used to eat from the produce of the Earth; he himself is the produce of the Earth, a creation of the living God.

The belief that Jesus is God begs for some questions:

-At what age did he become God? I mean was he God when he was in his mother’s womb? Or was he God when he was sucking his mother’s breasts or was he God when he was crawling? Or was he God when he was a man? God is God in eternity. God is the first and the last, he has no beginning. Jesus had a beginning.

-Did he have all the Divine Attributes of Power, Will and Knowledge while he was growing from childhood to adulthood, if not, at what time did he acquire them and exercise them?

-Does God belong to a race? Jesus is Jewish, in the Bible his ancestry is traced back to David. If Jesus is God then it also means God is Jewish! Muslims do not believe that God is of a certain race.

Salaam.
Joseph.


#10

Wa alaykum assalam Joseph,

i think you will have answers to your questions if you put in mind that Jesus is both human and divine, hence eating and sleeping and growing in knowledge are not a problem.

I am interested in why Islam objects to the idea of God manifesting His glory in a human form yet remaining God. Can God do it? yes of course. I think He knows the “how” better than us. Maybe you can answer my other posts since Meedo did not? thank you :slight_smile:

Salaam


#11

Salaam THEKING;

Manifesting his Glory in a human form? For what purpose? The ultimate purpose would be to convince the people that He existed, but the people (the Jews) already believed in the existence of the One and Living God without even seeing Him.

Jesus supposedly claimed to the Jews that he was God but it is said they did not believe him. Knowing that they already believed in the Living God, does it mean that they are disbelievers when they rejected the claim of divinity he supposedly made? No, the Jews are monotheists, they are not disbelievers; so why would God show up to people who already believed in Him (without even seeing Him) only to be rejected?
It makes perfect sense to limit the mission of Jesus to that of a Prophet and a messenger of God, which -I am not teaching you anything- Muslims believe him to be.

When it is said that Jesus was fully human, it is understood that he was body and a soul, but when it is said that he was fully God, the question becomes: what co-habited with his human soul in his human body for him to be considered fully God? Something **else ** in addition to his human soul had to be in his human body. What was this thing which the human body of Jesus -the human- could contain and which supposedly made him divine? Muslims don’t believe that God could be contained in any form or that God has a “shape”, human or else, however Muslims believe that Angels could manifest in a human form as was the case of the Archangel Gabriel with the virgin and pure Mary.

Muslims believe that God is such that His creation cannot sustain His glory if He ever were to manifest Himself to them.

Salaam.
Joseph.


#12

#13

Salaam THEKING;


#14

Ok so why did Mohammed get poisoned by a Jewess and take years to die? I thought he was above all that? He didnt come back either did he?

Jesus was tormented and hung onto a cross and yet three days later he rose from the grave. Thats how powerful MY GOD IS!


#15

So your problem is with the “why” rather than in the idea itself? are you telling me you find the idea acceptable but you don;t find a reason??
.

The human is the one we know how he looks like. The human has limited

attributes of power and knowledge and is not self-sufficient. The One we don’t know how He looks like has UnlimitedAttributes of Power and Knowledge and is Self-Sufficient. God made humans with the best of moulds. Which meanswe are made the best. So why would God have a problm taking the form of the best of moulds yet remain God?

My answer is that I don’t agree because two opposite things cannot be true at the same time.

you;ve got to difine infinite first. Infinity has many meanings.

all in all, are you telling me God CANNOT do it no matter how difficult it seems to us?
[/quote]


#16

Salaam;

[quote=inJESUS]Are you telling me God CANNOT do it no matter how difficult it seems to us?
[/quote]

I am not telling you personally anything, but to answer your question I would say the issue is not about God can or cannot, the issue is about why He would do that. To indirectly talk to humans, God would send human messengers. If we were angels, He would send us an angel messenger.

An atheist asked: "Can God create a rock so big we would not able to move it?"A yes or no answers lead to the same conclusion: God is **not **All-Powerul! In fact the above question is no more than asking:“Can God beat Himself?” Non sense, isn’t it?

As humans, -in addition to sustenance- we need guidance from God; to that end He would send us humans to whom he gives knowledge, wisdom and strength. If He were to come down to us by Himself in the form of a human -as our Christians brethren believe-, it would not add any power to His way of convincing people even with the help of wonders and miracles. A human is a human and God is God.

If you look into human history you would find a lot of beliefs in a human god/s which actually was widespread in many areas in Jesus’ time: Rome, Greece, Egypt, India, Asia Minor etc.
One of the men-god was (is) Krishna; the Hindu god who was (is) also believed to be of a virgin birth. Does this mean that God did it (i.e. becoming man) before? No, He did not and never did!

“We have sent before you (O, Mohamed) but men to whom we inspired that there is no god but Allah (God)…”
“If they were angels walking on earth, We would send them but an angel messenger…”
Note: I don’t have the translation of the Qur’an handy, the above the translation is mine.

Salaam.
Joseph.


#17

Meedo stated that God did not need to be tortured to forgive people’s sins.

You are correct, meedo. God didn’t need to make people or angels. He didn’t need to walk the earth as a man. He didn’t need to come and speak to us directly about the ways of God or to heal with miracles right before human eyes. He didn’t need to allow men who did not believe to mock and torture Him and hang Him on a cross until He died. He didn’t need to rise from the dead and come back to breath the Holy Spirit onto the Apostles at Pentecost. We could go on with the list of things God didn’t need to do.

But you are asking the wrong question. The question is not, “Why would God need to be tortured and killed to save us?” The question is, “Why did God allow Himself to be tortured and killed to save us?” The answer to the second question gets to the very heart of Christianity. If you imagine for a minute that God is a loving God, a God who is our Father, rather than the just the “will” that Muslims believe Him to be, it will be much easier for you to understand why He allowed Himself to be tortured and killed.


#18

Salaam THEKING;

Allah’s name is THE GREATEST (in the absolute sense)

Is a ram equivalent to a human being? are you worth a ram? it must be something equivalent to you which pays your price, and must be without blemish : that is, Jesus.

A ram is not equivalent to a human being, that’s for sure, but God wanted the sacrifice to be a tradition for the Children of Ismael, so He offered Abraham something the Children of Ismael can afford!

Salaam.
Joseph.


#19

The Koran of course tells a lie. Abraham did not offer Ishmael (the illegitimate son) as the sacrifice. He offered Isaac who was the legitimate son.


#20

Th eKoran doesnt lie, and Ishmael is a Ligetamete son as much as the children of Israel are ligitamate. Half teh childern of israel are sons of ex servants of Jacob wives whom he later married. All of them are his sons without exception . It is just convenient christian wise to call ishmael illigetamate.

salam


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