To Protestants, a discussion of Eph 3:10 and 1 Tim 3:15


#1

Do you believe the Scripture which says:

Ephesians 3:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

This says that the Church teaches the Wisdom of God.

1 Timothy 3:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

And this says the Church is the Pillar of Truth.

In both instances, the infallible Scripture teaches that the Church is infallible.

What say you?

Sincerely,

De Maria


#2

Amen! The CC


#3

Do you believe the Scripture which says:

Ephesians 3:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

This says that the Church teaches the Wisdom of God.

1 Timothy 3:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

And this says the Church is the Pillar of Truth.

In both instances, the infallible Scripture teaches that the Church is infallible.

What say you?

I am a "Protestant" (I really don't like that word; I am a Christian) and I say that the Church IS ALL OF THE PEOPLE who love and belong to the Lord, and that as His people (the Church), we are all sinners and thus infallible.

Only God can have ALL wisdom, and only He can be infallible. We are not God, we are the Church... and we are human sinners, all of us.

His Church (Christians) was founded on solid rock (or ground) so as not to shift from one way or another. As His devoted followers, we must stand on solid ground with Him. God is the Truth and the Light, and we must be pillars (solid foundation supporters) of that Truth to the world around us.

:extrahappy: I am sooo happy to be a member of His Church!


#4

No institution is infallible. Using absolutes will always run you into issues.


#5

The Church is indeed the pillar of truth. What could be more true than all the bishops, priests, deacons and baptised lay faithful throughout the whole world proclaiming that Jesus is Lord? The onus is on you to say that Church = bishop of Rome ;)


#6

[quote="kmcarl56, post:3, topic:339045"]
Do you believe the Scripture which says:

Ephesians 3:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

This says that the Church teaches the Wisdom of God.

1 Timothy 3:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

And this says the Church is the Pillar of Truth.

In both instances, the infallible Scripture teaches that the Church is infallible.

What say you?

I am a "Protestant" (I really don't like that word; I am a Christian) and I say that the Church IS ALL OF THE PEOPLE who love and belong to the Lord, and that as His people (the Church), we are all sinners and thus infallible.

Only God can have ALL wisdom, and only He can be infallible. We are not God, we are the Church... and we are human sinners, all of us.

His Church (Christians) was founded on solid rock (or ground) so as not to shift from one way or another. As His devoted followers, we must stand on solid ground with Him. God is the Truth and the Light, and we must be pillars (solid foundation supporters) of that Truth to the world around us.

:extrahappy: I am sooo happy to be a member of His Church!

[/quote]

Were the apostles Peter and Paul ever infallible?


#7

Yes. They were human; thus, they were sinners just like anyone else. Only after death is anyone made perfect.


#8

[quote="De_Maria, post:1, topic:339045"]
Do you believe the Scripture which says:

Ephesians 3:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

This says that the Church teaches the Wisdom of God.

1 Timothy 3:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

And this says the Church is the Pillar of Truth.

In both instances, the infallible Scripture teaches that the Church is infallible.

What say you?

Sincerely,

De Maria

[/quote]

You beat me to this post LOL, thank you these verses are so true, as we can see it doesn't say theBible is the Pillar and Bulwark, but actually the Church


#9

[quote="kmcarl56, post:7, topic:339045"]
Yes. They were human; thus, they were sinners just like anyone else. Only after death is anyone made perfect.

[/quote]

Of course, the Pope is also a sinner. He has to go to confession, like regular people. But what I asked was if Peter and Paul were infallible, and you say they were?


#10

[quote="kmcarl56, post:3, topic:339045"]
Do you believe the Scripture which says:

Ephesians 3:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

This says that the Church teaches the Wisdom of God.

1 Timothy 3:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

And this says the Church is the Pillar of Truth.

In both instances, the infallible Scripture teaches that the Church is infallible.

What say you?

I am a "Protestant" (I really don't like that word; I am a Christian) and I say that the Church IS ALL OF THE PEOPLE who love and belong to the Lord, and that as His people (the Church), we are all sinners and thus infallible.

Only God can have ALL wisdom, and only He can be infallible. We are not God, we are the Church... and we are human sinners, all of us.

His Church (Christians) was founded on solid rock (or ground) so as not to shift from one way or another. As His devoted followers, we must stand on solid ground with Him. God is the Truth and the Light, and we must be pillars (solid foundation supporters) of that Truth to the world around us.

:extrahappy: I am sooo happy to be a member of His Church!

[/quote]

And the Catholic Church is Infallible. Whenever the Pope Speaks from the Chair, whatever he says about faith and morals are true, and what he teaches cannot b wrong because its not him speaking but the Holy Spirit is guiding him.

Also, remember the Catholic Church has been around since Pentecost, the Church has had some really bad popes, but its still standing, getting stronger as time passes by. When the church first started Roman leaders tried destroying it and couldn't. Why not you say, because God is the one guiding his earthly kingdom, the 1 he left in charge to Peter when he gave him the keys to the Kingdom in Matthew 16:17-19


#11

[quote="sealoch, post:4, topic:339045"]
No institution is infallible. Using absolutes will always run you into issues.

[/quote]

I know of 1, its the Catholic Church. Kingdoms have raised since the Catholic Church started and they have failed. Even tough the Catholic Church is composed of more sinners than saints, were being guided, guided by the Holy Spirit. Since God never makes a mistake, and the Holy Spirit is the 3rd part of the Holy Trinity, he the Holy Spirit will never allow his Church to teach anything wrong.


#12

When I said, “I am a “Protestant” …and I say that the Church IS ALL OF THE PEOPLE who love and belong to the Lord, and that as His people (the Church), we are all sinners and thus infallible.” I meant to say that we are fallible. We all fall short of perfection.

So are you saying that the Pope is incapable of speaking a word from his chair that is wrong according to the Lord? That, to me, would be saying that the Pope is infallible and thus perfect in all he does and says. To say that is putting the Pope on the same spiritual level as God/Jesus/Holy Spirit. He is not. He is human. He is a sinner. He can be wrong. If he can never be wrong then why are we all having so much discussion about what is right or wrong in the Church (and I mean all the people of the Church).

Jesus did leave Peter in charge of His Church, but even Peter surely made mistakes at times. Since Jesus arose and went to be seated next to God in Heaven, there has never been perfection on the earth. We are all sinners. We are the Church. So we are all fallible…even those in Rome.


#13

[quote="chero23, post:11, topic:339045"]
I know of 1, its the Catholic Church. Kingdoms have raised since the Catholic Church started and they have failed. Even tough the Catholic Church is composed of more sinners than saints, were being guided, guided by the Holy Spirit. Since God never makes a mistake, and the Holy Spirit is the 3rd part of the Holy Trinity, he the Holy Spirit will never allow his Church to teach anything wrong.

[/quote]

So you are saying the catholic church has never done anything they have had to apologize for later on. Most likly you will respond with no the individuals that committed them were wrong. And if i respond with but the teachings that i have later been modified or the restrictions that were changed were infallible? Then you will undoubtedly respond saying those were found to be lacking in basis and corrected another failing of man.
So in the end the church is infallible but when it does make a mistake it wasn't the church itself we can blame that on humans.


#14

[quote="kmcarl56, post:3, topic:339045"]

Do you believe the Scripture which says:

Ephesians 3:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

This says that the Church teaches the Wisdom of God.

1 Timothy 3:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

And this says the Church is the Pillar of Truth.

In both instances, the infallible Scripture teaches that the Church is infallible.

What say you?

I am a "Protestant" (I really don't like that word; I am a Christian) and I say that the Church IS ALL OF THE PEOPLE who love and belong to the Lord, and that as His people (the Church), we are all sinners and thus infallible.

Only God can have ALL wisdom, and only He can be infallible. We are not God, we are the Church... and we are human sinners, all of us.

His Church (Christians) was founded on solid rock (or ground) so as not to shift from one way or another. As His devoted followers, we must stand on solid ground with Him. God is the Truth and the Light, and we must be pillars (solid foundation supporters) of that Truth to the world around us.

:extrahappy: I am sooo happy to be a member of His Church!

[/quote]

I agree to an extent with your point about all Christians being a part of His Church...but consider another passage in Scripture. Mt 18:15-18...
15"If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.16But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Note here in Verse 17 how it says that we are to take our issues and disagreements and "tell it to the church" - and then we are to listen to the church for the church has the authority to bind and loose "whatever".

While as I say I appreciate that we are all members of the body....this passage, coupled with what we see in Acts 15 indicates a more "formal" approach to resolving issues - even among distant church locations.

Add to this that there are at least seven places in Scripture where Jesus and the Apostles pray and exhort us to profound unity...of being of one mind...agreeing with one another and avoiding dissension etc.

All of these things together provide a very profound picture of a visible, unified, and authoritative Church built on an councilior model and subject to the various elders (apostles, bishops etc).

In short - I think that you have a good basic understanding - that we are all members of the body - I just don't think you have fully seen or integrated what Scripture tells us about how that body is intended to function.

Peace
James


#15

Very interested to see how this discussion develops
:popcorn:


#16

[quote="kmcarl56, post:12, topic:339045"]
When I said, "I am a "Protestant" ...and I say that the Church IS ALL OF THE PEOPLE who love and belong to the Lord, and that as His people (the Church), we are all sinners and thus infallible." I meant to say that we are fallible. We all fall short of perfection.

So are you saying that the Pope is incapable of speaking a word from his chair that is wrong according to the Lord? That, to me, would be saying that the Pope is infallible and thus perfect in all he does and says. To say that is putting the Pope on the same spiritual level as God/Jesus/Holy Spirit. He is not. He is human. He is a sinner. He can be wrong. If he can never be wrong then why are we all having so much discussion about what is right or wrong in the Church (and I mean all the people of the Church).

Jesus did leave Peter in charge of His Church, but even Peter surely made mistakes at times. Since Jesus arose and went to be seated next to God in Heaven, there has never been perfection on the earth. We are all sinners. We are the Church. So we are all fallible...even those in Rome.

[/quote]

When we speak of the Pope being infallible, what we mean is this: The Pope, the Bishop of Rome, when he authoritatively teaches on faith and morals to the universal Church, is protected by the chrism of the Holy Spirit, and is infallible. That is, the doctrines and teachings he propagates are free from error. Likewise, when the college of bishops and the pope are assembled together in an ecumenical council, such as Trent, or Vatican II, when the Church speaks together in a definite way, it is infallible also.

We do not mean by this that the Pope or any Bishop is free from Sin. That is not the question. The question is does God protect and preserve his Church, guiding them into all truth, just as he promised? Is the Church the Pillar and Foundation of the truth like Paul said it was? The answer is yes.

God knows how to draw straight with crooked lines. He is able to preserve his Church from doctrinal confusion and error, guiding them into all truth. This does not mean the Pope will be sinless or even a nice man. It does mean he is protected by the Holy Spirit and cannot lead the Church into error.

Now, if the Church is conceived outside of Christ, well then of course it sounds absurd. "No man can do that!". Well of course, outside of God, man can do nothing. But the Church is the body of Christ, and it's soul is the Holy Spirit. Christ gave his Church a share in his authority, to declare and teach all that he commanded.

And if God cannot or does not render men infallible occasionally, then not even the Bible is infallible, as it was written by men.


#17

I don’t know of any Catholic would say that the Church = the Bishop of Rome.

I would suggest that you refer to my post just above to see what Scripture says about how the Church is to function…It’s a bit more involved than just proclaiming the Jesus is Lord.

Even is yourself and kmcarl and others wish to set aside the Bishop of Rome as head of the universal Church and rely on Scripture, you are still left the problem or reconciling what Scripture says - and how the protestant communions have developed.
Scripture describes how issues are to be handled…and unity maintained (Elders, teachers, bishops and councils). I do not see this biblical model promoted among the various protestant groups who wish to claim that they follow the bible.

Peace
James


#18

Ok.

and I say that the Church IS ALL OF THE PEOPLE who love and belong to the Lord, and that as His people (the Church), we are all sinners and thus infallible.

That is a contradiction. Sinners, by definition, have fallen from grace and are therefore NOT infallible.

Or maybe that is what you meant to say.

Only God can have ALL wisdom,

Are you rejecting the Teaching of Eph 3:10 which says that the Church teaches the Wisdom of God?

and only He can be infallible

.

Then, who wrote the Scriptures? Was it man or God?

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

That verse says that God inspired men to preach the Word of God. It also says that this is from where the prophecy of Scripture came. God inspired men to preach. Men wrote down what they were inspired to preach.

We are not God, we are the Church… and we are human sinners, all of us.

We are not God. But God works through His people.

His Church (Christians) was founded on solid rock (or ground) so as not to shift from one way or another.

Exactly! But non-Catholic Christians shift all the time.

As His devoted followers, we must stand on solid ground with Him.

That is the purpose of His Church. That is why He left us the Church. That we may be united within the Church:
Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

God is the Truth and the Light, and we must be pillars (solid foundation supporters) of that Truth to the world around us.

:extrahappy: I am sooo happy to be a member of His Church!

You need to take an extra step and become a member of His true Church:
Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Sincerely,

De Maria


#19

[quote="antonthomas, post:2, topic:339045"]
Amen! The CC

[/quote]

Amen!


#20

[quote="chero23, post:10, topic:339045"]
And the Catholic Church is Infallible.

[/quote]

Deducing that you mean the RCC, by "infallible", is "unerring" and "flawless" the intended definition?

I'm curious to hear the taught perception (not personal opinion, thank you though) of the RCC infallibility in the light of the victims of sexual (including homosexual) abuse by RCC priests (they are the legal torch-holders of the RCC, right?) over the decades.
nytimes.com/2013/01/22/us/files-show-cardinal-roger-mahony-covered-up-sex-abuse.html

Everyone in the world, after Adam & Eve, is born sinners. To stand firm on "We are totally & always correct about everything" is to build your house upon sand.

Trust in Christ, friends, walk in His ways, and know you're free from God's condemnation (Rom 8:1) by His divine gifting. :thumbsup:


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