To prove Christianity is true we must first prove Judaism is true. Right?

I know that Christianity comes from Judaism, but how do we know that before Christ Judaism was true? I’m very interested in hearing what you guys have to say!:smiley:

God Bless!

I would have to say it depends on what you mean by Judaism. Rabbinical Judaism, the Judaism the we know of today does not have to be proven, but Biblical Judaism, the Judaism of the Old Testament certainly does. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that one is “right” and one is “wrong”. Judaism is wrong, in as much as it denies Jesus Christ and associated dogmata and doctrines (I say this with all charity to Jews).

Really, if you can prove that Jesus existed (an opinion which historians are nearly unanimous in affirming), and that He suffered death (another opinion which historians share in affirming), rose again from the dead and ascended to Heaven, you’ve proven Christianity.

Now you ask, how we know that before Jesus Christ, Judaism is true. The answer to this is really quite similar. God’s existence can be known with certitude, by natural reason alone (that is a dogma of the Catholic faith). That there is only one God, and not many gods, is also certain, by natural reason alone (I’m not going to explain how you can know that here). Now, many of the Laws of Judaism, or mitzvot, are reiterations of natural law, that is, laws that can be deduced by reaosn from nature. As for the Divine positive laws, such as not eating unclean foods, observing the Passover, circumcision etc., it really would come down to proving that Abraham existed, and that the traditions of Judaism are true.

You must understand, however, that the mitzvot, are not of universal applicability, according to the Jews. The universal laws that all people must follow, according to Jews, are called the Noahides, of which there are six, and really all of them are iterations of natural law. Judaic law and the Jewish faith, are not necessary for ‘salvation’ (since the Jews did not have, and really still do not have, a well developed concept of the afterlife), or better said, pleasing God, as we Catholics believe the Catholic faith and practice are now. That is, it is necessary to hold the Catholic faith in order to be saved, or please God (see the Creed of St. Athanasius), whereas Judaism did not have the same necessity to people in the Old Testament.

I hope this helps you,

Benedicat Deus
Latinitas

The histroy of Judaism is an historical fact. And they kept track orally and through various writings. Their stories matched up. Their stories foretold the comming of a Savior, in great detail. Christ fulfilled those prophesies. Also, do you really think any human could have dreamed up those stories? I don’t.

Linus2nd

What about bringing all the Israelites back to their homeland? Or eliminating hunger, disease and death? Or granting Jews eternal joy? It seems to me that the Jews are undoubtedly one of, if not the most, persecuted cultures through history. What about having the whole world worshiping the one God of Israel? Or being a descendant of king Solomon? Or eliminating of all weapons of war?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mashiach_ben_David#Ancient_Israel

I’m not trying to refute your beliefs as much as I’m just actually curious.

Thank you for your input, and yes I was talking about Biblical Judaism. Thanks again it really did help!:thumbsup: God Bless!

Thank you for helping me with your input!:thumbsup:
God Bless!

There is an old Jewish saying that goes like this:“the man who has not suffered, what can he possible know?”

If you are waiting for God to eliminate all of suffering, you might as well give up. This is why I’m christian/Catholic, because I know there is suffering in the world. This suffering doesn’t say that there is no God, but rather it is saying that this world is not meant for Eternal happiness.

Hopefully that is what you were talking about:D
God Bless!

For my own clarification (and sorry if this is off topic vincent)- Would it not be more accurate to state that post-Christ Judaism is valid (it’s foundation is true) but incomplete (denial/ignorance of Christ)? Similar to Protestantism which has a valid foundation but is incomplete due to its errors. I ask because the term “wrong” for me is more applicable to faiths which are not only incomplete, but lack a foundation that is true (Islam, Mormonism, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc).

It is taking a long time, isn’t it? G-d did not promise the path toward loving and worshiping Him would be easy, just as no earthly task worth anything is without challenges. However, slowly but surely the Jews are returning to their homeland and when the Messiah does arrive and the Messianic era begins, which can be at any time, things will improve. Why have the Jews suffered so much, as you say? Just as many Christians believe, suffering is necessary for redemption. The difference in Judaism is that suffering is viewed in a collective sense, as a people, just as redemption is viewed as such. The savior for Jews is not supposed to save our individual souls from separation from G-d; that responsibility is ours as individuals. According to Judaism, the Messiah is supposed to fulfill the prophecies of peace among the nations of the world, return of the Jewish people to Israel, recognition of and worship of G-d, and a return to the study of Torah and the practice of its teachings with renewed vigor. That has not happened yet but Jews are a very patient people.

With regard to the question of the OP, I think one would have to grapple with the issues of G-d’s existence and the nature of G-d as a personal G-d Who is benevolent, merciful, just, omnipotent, omnipresent, extra-spatial, and extra-temporal. Further, since Judaism was not born fully developed and there were in fact over 20 competing Judaisms in ancient times, one would have to show some evidence that the “correct” Judaism prevailed. Another issue is using the tenets of Christianity to retroactively “prove” the veracity of Judaism.

maybe prove is not the best word to use when speaking about judaic and christian truths.

we believe that judaism and christianity are true. our faith is supported by the use of sound reason, but proof in the axiomatic or scientific sense is not possible.

I see. This is the biggest reason why I’ve been skeptical about Jesus being the messiah as described by the Jewish tradition, considering he did not fulfill the tasks the bible itself said the messiah is supposed to fulfill… at least, unless one does semantic and theological acrobatics.

Also, the messiah is popularly believed to arrive 6000 years after creation. How does this reconcile with the scientifically-supported view that the universe is around 14,3 billion years old? I know creation traditionally refers to the universe itself, but does it mean something else with contemporary theology, and does this mean that the Anno Mundi calendar should be abandoned or reformed?

Really? I had no idea there were “many” Judaisms at first. Fascinating.

So hold on, if Judaism is about God’s chosen people following specific laws, how were there many Judaisms? Furthermore, does Orthodox, Conservative and Reform Judaism count as “different” Judaisms in the way you mean?

It’s not, but thanks for the answer nonetheless. To a degree, I agree with you, but most other religions, namely Buddhism, also put a lot of emphasis on suffering in this world too, so it’s certainly not limited to Christianity.

Speaking to the Samaritan woman at the well…

John 4:21, 22 (KJV)

21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22 Ye [the Samaritans] worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Here’s a 4 minute reenactment. lds.org/bible-videos/videos/jesus-teaches-a-samaritan-woman?lang=eng If you want to cut to the chase go to the 2:30 mark.

What has happend to the Jews since the Resurrection of Christ gas no relevance to the question. Christ established a new covenant with all people. This does not disprove the history of Judaism and the convenant God established with them. Do you understand that?

Linus2nd

It’s not, but thanks for the answer nonetheless. To a degree, I agree with you, but most other religions, namely Buddhism, also put a lot of emphasis on suffering in this world too, so it’s certainly not limited to Christianity.

Sorry for not understanding your statements. Every religion has some truth, but some have more than others.

This should be more on track with your questions. bibleprobe.com/300great.htm

Wow, that is quite a mouthful. I don’t think I’ll be able to read all of that, but I’ve read a part of it, and I have a hard time understanding it, hahaha. Still though, thanks for the link; will revisit it periodically.

I would not say so.

In the late 1100s, Maimonides formulated the Thirteen principles of the Jewish faith, which are:

I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, Blessed be His Name, is the Creator and Guide of everything that has been created; He alone has made, does make, and will make all things.

I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, Blessed be His Name, is One, and that there is no unity in any manner like His, and that He alone is our God, who was, and is, and will be.

I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, Blessed be His Name, has no body, and that He is free from all the properties of matter, and that there can be no (physical) comparison to Him whatsoever.

I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, Blessed be His Name, is the first and the last.

I believe with perfect faith that to the Creator, Blessed be His Name, and to Him alone, it is right to pray, and that it is not right to pray to any being besides Him.

I believe with perfect faith that all the words of the prophets are true.

I believe with perfect faith that the prophecy of Moses our teacher, peace be upon him, was true, and that he was the chief of the prophets, both those who preceded him and those who followed him.

I believe with perfect faith that the entire Torah that is now in our possession is the same that was given to Moses our teacher, peace be upon him.

I believe with perfect faith that this Torah will not be exchanged, and that there will never be any other Torah from the Creator, Blessed be His Name.

I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, Blessed be His Name, knows all the deeds of human beings and all their thoughts, as it is written, “Who fashioned the hearts of them all, Who comprehends all their actions” (Psalms 33:15).

I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, Blessed be His Name, rewards those who keep His commandments and punishes those that transgress them.

I believe with perfect faith in the coming of the Messiah; and even though he may tarry, nonetheless, I wait every day for his coming.

I believe with perfect faith that there will be a revival of the dead at the time when it shall please the Creator, Blessed be His name, and His mention shall be exalted for ever and ever.

Maimonides basically said that one cannot be an orthodox Jew if one believes contrary to these doctrines. The bolded statements are seriously problematic.

Basically, in order to avoid being a ‘Jewish heretic’ if we might call it that, one must believe and wait for the Messiah to come, which according to the Catholic Church is blasphemous and contumelious (no offense to Jews). That is, it is heresy, according to Maimonides (regarded as one of the greatest teachers of Judaism), to believe that the Messiah has already come.

The statement of the Torah is also problematic, as it indicates that the Old Testament will never be consummated, and that the idea that one could fulfull the entirety of the Old Testament is blasphemous to the Jews.

So to say that Judaism is merely incomplete is not correct, and Protestantism is fundamentally heretical; see the Council of Trent.

Judaism, is also based on false premises.

I mean to say this with all due charity, to Jews, Catholics, Protestants and to all, ad majorem Dei gloriam et inque hominum salutem.
Benedicat Deus
Latinitas

:smiley:

Many arguments for the existence of God that are popular in philosophy today such as the Kalam cosmological argument imply attributes to God that narrows the search down to the God of the Abrahamic religions (i.e., Judaism, Christianity, Islam). From what I’ve read, the idea of the cosmos being created ex nihilo by a single, personal deity is unprecedented when the Jews arrive on the scene. Hope this helps!

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