Today you will be with me in paradise


#1

When Jesus says this, why does he say paradise? Paradise and heaven are different, paradise is past and gone, heaven future and coming…

AND

what is Jesus talking about here, because he DID NOT go to paradise/heaven on that day, the Church explicitly teaches that he spent 3 days in the netherworld, then 40 days on Earth and then ascended to heaven, so Jesus could’ve been there with this guy in 43 days, not on that day.

Ever thought of that one?
Emil


#2

These are just my thoughts and I could be wrong as hell. But, I always thought that Heaven was a kind of Paridise.

And Also I thought that in Heaven there is no time so for the theif on the Cross Jesus would still be showing up on Today.

Though like I said, I could be wrong.


#3

This is my understanding, and someone will probably refute me, but:

Abraham’s bosom was the place for the righteous who died BEFORE Christ’s resurrection. (See Luke 16:22–a poor man dies and is taken to Abraham’s bosom)

Paradise - at Christ’s ascention, the righteous were transferred from within earth to God’s presence. (See Ephesians 4:8-10 When he ascended on high, he led captive a host of captives, and another example 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 fourteen years before Christ’s resurrection, man was caught up into Paradise.)

Both the above words, Abraham’s bosom and paradise, are translated from the original Hebrew word “sheol” which basically meant “grave.” (See Matthew 27:52 where the tombs opened and bodies were raised)

Remember in the creed, Jesus descended into hell and rose again the third day?–well, “hell” was translated from the word “hades” which also meant “the grave.”

Anyway, back to the real question, when Jesus said "Today you shall be with Me in Paradise–it could be translated then, today you shall be with Me in the grave. Obviously Jesus would have been in Abraham’s bosom, or paradise, so the theif was with him there. When Jesus rose the third day, THEN the theif would have been included in with the other righteous dead who were transferred at that time to be with God.


#4

you cannot limit God, Jesus, Holy Spirit to one time, one
place at the time…

He is onipresent… He is in paradise today, and here within
me, and within you…

when He told the thief he would be in paradise with Him
today, then that’s EXACTLY what happened…

:slight_smile:


#5

Check your dictionary Paradise = Garden of Eden, Paradise = Heaven, however Heaven does not = Garden of Eden.


#6

[quote=Marquette]This is my understanding, and someone will probably refute me, but:

Abraham’s bosom was the place for the righteous who died BEFORE Christ’s resurrection. (See Luke 16:22–a poor man dies and is taken to Abraham’s bosom)

Paradise - at Christ’s ascention, the righteous were transferred from within earth to God’s presence. (See Ephesians 4:8-10 When he ascended on high, he led captive a host of captives, and another example 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 fourteen years before Christ’s resurrection, man was caught up into Paradise.)

Both the above words, Abraham’s bosom and paradise, are translated from the original Hebrew word “sheol” which basically meant “grave.” (See Matthew 27:52 where the tombs opened and bodies were raised)

Remember in the creed, Jesus descended into hell and rose again the third day?–well, “hell” was translated from the word “hades” which also meant “the grave.”

Anyway, back to the real question, when Jesus said "Today you shall be with Me in Paradise–it could be translated then, today you shall be with Me in the grave. Obviously Jesus would have been in Abraham’s bosom, or paradise, so the theif was with him there. When Jesus rose the third day, THEN the theif would have been included in with the other righteous dead who were transferred at that time to be with God.
[/quote]

This is the answer that makes the most sense to me, and I don’t see anything wrong with it.

Basically, the thief was with Jesus that day in paradise, not Heaven.

Peace,
javelin


#7

[quote=Marquette]This is my understanding, and someone will probably refute me, but:

Abraham’s bosom was the place for the righteous who died BEFORE Christ’s resurrection. (See Luke 16:22–a poor man dies and is taken to Abraham’s bosom)

Paradise - at Christ’s ascention, the righteous were transferred from within earth to God’s presence. (See Ephesians 4:8-10 When he ascended on high, he led captive a host of captives, and another example 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 fourteen years before Christ’s resurrection, man was caught up into Paradise.)

Both the above words, Abraham’s bosom and paradise, are translated from the original Hebrew word “sheol” which basically meant “grave.” (See Matthew 27:52 where the tombs opened and bodies were raised)

Remember in the creed, Jesus descended into hell and rose again the third day?–well, “hell” was translated from the word “hades” which also meant “the grave.”

Anyway, back to the real question, when Jesus said "Today you shall be with Me in Paradise–it could be translated then, today you shall be with Me in the grave. Obviously Jesus would have been in Abraham’s bosom, or paradise, so the theif was with him there. When Jesus rose the third day, THEN the theif would have been included in with the other righteous dead who were transferred at that time to be with God.
[/quote]

I am curious where you are getting that “bosom of Abraham” is transalted from the Hebrew “sheol”. Since Luke was written in Greek, it was “kolpon Abraam”, literally the bosom of Abraham.

This is an honest question, since I am by no means an expert.


#8

[quote=fineca]When Jesus says this, why does he say paradise? Paradise and heaven are different, paradise is past and gone, heaven future and coming…

AND

what is Jesus talking about here, because he DID NOT go to paradise/heaven on that day, the Church explicitly teaches that he spent 3 days in the netherworld, then 40 days on Earth and then ascended to heaven, so Jesus could’ve been there with this guy in 43 days, not on that day.

Ever thought of that one?

Emil
[/quote]

Paradise is another name for Abraham’s Bosom, spoken of in Luke, chapter 16. When Our Lord died, He descended into this place, which was located in the center of the earth. It is called paradise because it was a place of natural happiness, as opposed to heaven which was supernatural happiness.

In the Creed we say He descended into Hell, which refers to the location in the center of the earth, not necessarily the hell of the damned.


#9

[quote=dulcissima]I am curious where you are getting that “bosom of Abraham” is transalted from the Hebrew “sheol”. Since Luke was written in Greek, it was “kolpon Abraam”, literally the bosom of Abraham.

This is an honest question, since I am by no means an expert.
[/quote]

If anyone else is interested, I found a good explanation of “bosom of Abraham”, paradise, hades, sheol, etc.

newadvent.org/cathen/01055a.htm


#10

I read that in the original language there is no punctuation and that in translation into English the punctuation is wrong and that Jesus did not say “Amen I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise” but “Amen I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” so he’s telling the criminal he’s saved but not specifying when he will be going to heaven.
Has anyone else heard of this scenario?


#11

[quote=thistle]I read that in the original language there is no punctuation and that in translation into English the punctuation is wrong and that Jesus did not say “Amen I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise” but “Amen I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” so he’s telling the criminal he’s saved but not specifying when he will be going to heaven.
Has anyone else heard of this scenario?
[/quote]

I have heard this interpretation of the comma position:
“Amen I am telling you today, you will be with me in paradise”.
This comma shift totally changes the entire meaning of the sentence.
Could anyone explain?? (Because I really don’t know)


#12

[quote=tomaskovarik]I have heard this interpretation of the comma position:
“Amen I am telling you today, you will be with me in paradise”.
This comma shift totally changes the entire meaning of the sentence.
Could anyone explain?? (Because I really don’t know)
[/quote]

I believe that explanation you’ve heard from Jehova’s Witnesses or something - in their translation it’s like that. But in my Greek new Testament there are commas and as far as I know Greek uses punctuation and the Evangelists probably punctuated the text, or does someone know for a fact that the commas have been added later? Anyway in my Greek New Testament the comma is before the word “today”, not after. the JWs place it after so that they could still hold their doctrines that the dead are unconscious and that the final destination of most believers is an earthly paradise.


#13

what makes us think this paradise was located at the centre of the earth? it’s burning hot in there! and how could’ve it been situated anywhere if only the souls were there!?
otherwise the theory about the bosom of abraham, sheol, hades and paradise being the same thing is very interesting and enlightening and I wonder why it hasn’t been made clear to me before, even people who know theology well answered me completely differently…
Emil


#14

[quote=thistle]I read that in the original language there is no punctuation and that in translation into English the punctuation is wrong and that Jesus did not say “Amen I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise” but “Amen I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” so he’s telling the criminal he’s saved but not specifying when he will be going to heaven.
Has anyone else heard of this scenario?
[/quote]

I believe it is useful to point out that nowhere else in the Gospels where Jesus says the phrase “Amen I say to you” does he add the word “today”, as in “Amen I say to you today”.

Just doing a quick onloine search of the Douay-Rheims translation, there are 63 instances in the gospels where Jesus says “Amen I say (un)to you”, and in none of the instances is it followed by “today”.

So, it seems that the word “today” best fits with the following phrase, as in “today you will be with me in paradise”.

Peace,
javelin


#15

[quote=javelin]I believe it is useful to point out that nowhere else in the Gospels where Jesus says the phrase “Amen I say to you” does he add the word “today”, as in “Amen I say to you today”.

Just doing a quick onloine search of the Douay-Rheims translation, there are 63 instances in the gospels where Jesus says “Amen I say (un)to you”, and in none of the instances is it followed by “today”.

So, it seems that the word “today” best fits with the following phrase, as in “today you will be with me in paradise”.

Peace,
javelin
[/quote]

thanks Emil and Javelin,
I hope you are right. I think you are right. I am still not quite sure, however, what is meant by “today you will be with me in paradise”. Does it mean the day Jesus spoke the words? Or, does the “day” mean some other time sense, like it is in Bible sometimes. And paradise means heaven right? I am getting confused about something I never had “problems with”. But I am sure that someone here can explain things (so that even I can understand).
Thanks!!!
Tomas


#16

[quote=fineca]what makes us think this paradise was located at the centre of the earth? it’s burning hot in there! and how could’ve it been situated anywhere if only the souls were there!?
otherwise the theory about the bosom of abraham, sheol, hades and paradise being the same thing is very interesting and enlightening and I wonder why it hasn’t been made clear to me before, even people who know theology well answered me completely differently…
Emil
[/quote]

See Eph 4:9. St paul is writing in reference to the apostles’ creed “… he descended into hell and on the third day rose again from the dead”.

My reading of it IMHO.


#17

[quote=tomaskovarik]thanks Emil and Javelin,
I hope you are right. I think you are right. I am still not quite sure, however, what is meant by “today you will be with me in paradise”. Does it mean the day Jesus spoke the words? Or, does the “day” mean some other time sense, like it is in Bible sometimes. And paradise means heaven right? I am getting confused about something I never had “problems with”. But I am sure that someone here can explain things (so that even I can understand).
Thanks!!!
Tomas
[/quote]

I believe, and it looks to be the majority opinion here, that when Jesus spoke of paradise to the theif, He did not mean Heaven.

There are two important reasons for this:

  1. Jesus Himself did not rise from the dead until the third day.
  2. Jesus did not ascend to Heaven until several weeks had passed.

Given that most Christians will completely agree with statements #1 and #2 above, how could they possibly believe that the theif could have been in Heaven with Jesus the same day they were on the cross?

While the “death is outside of time” argument to fix this apparent contradiction seems nice, it simply does not have enough evidence to support it. Why would Jesus be talking to the theif in eternal terms while still in the temporal life? Why confuse him? Why not just say “I assure you, you will be with me in Heaven”?

The much better, clearer, and more plausible explanation is that when Jesus said “paradise”, he was talking about the Jewish concept of the place of perfect natural happiness to which the righteous of God went after death until the Savior came to open the gates of Heaven.

That is where the thief went.
That, too, is where Jesus went to loose the souls imprisoned there.
On the day of the resurrection, they went to Heaven to experience God’s happiness, which is far greater than the natural happiness of paradise.

At least that is how I have understood this.

Peace,
javelin


#18

In his discourse to the Greeks, Josephus points out that when a person dies they will either go to the bosom of Abraham, or they will be “pressed hard about the lake of fire,” where temporary punishments are inflicted on both. (In the sense also that both types will understand that their punishment is fair and just.)

For the condemned, it is the worm that ceaseth not (in addition to other unhappy maladies) which preceedes being cast into the lake of fire. For the just, these temporary punishments would constitute what we refer to as purgatory; paying satisfaction for one’s sins prior to being “cast” into heaven. (I never liked the idea of marching into heaven singing because I don’t have much of a singing voice. If the damned are “cast” into the lake of fire, why can’t I just be flung into heaven?)

This place of temporary punishments is referred to as the bosom of Abraham, the prison, sheol, purgatory. Christ accepted the thief’s surrender to Him, so they would both that day be in sheol, but for two different reasons. Christ to preach and then lead out, the thief to pay satisfaction.

Thal59


#19

[quote=javelin]I believe, and it looks to be the majority opinion here, that when Jesus spoke of paradise to the theif, He did not mean Heaven.

There are two important reasons for this:

  1. Jesus Himself did not rise from the dead until the third day.
  2. Jesus did not ascend to Heaven until several weeks had passed.

Given that most Christians will completely agree with statements #1 and #2 above, how could they possibly believe that the theif could have been in Heaven with Jesus the same day they were on the cross?

While the “death is outside of time” argument to fix this apparent contradiction seems nice, it simply does not have enough evidence to support it. Why would Jesus be talking to the theif in eternal terms while still in the temporal life? Why confuse him? Why not just say “I assure you, you will be with me in Heaven”?

The much better, clearer, and more plausible explanation is that when Jesus said “paradise”, he was talking about the Jewish concept of the place of perfect natural happiness to which the righteous of God went after death until the Savior came to open the gates of Heaven.

That is where the thief went.
That, too, is where Jesus went to loose the souls imprisoned there.
On the day of the resurrection, they went to Heaven to experience God’s happiness, which is far greater than the natural happiness of paradise.

At least that is how I have understood this.

Peace,
javelin
[/quote]

This sounds logical, but it doesn’t make sense that Hades or Sheol would’ve been called both bosom of Abraham and Paradise, since the two former ones mean “grave” but the latter ones refer to a place of life and happiness even… another writer here said that this place is equivalent to purgatory, which is an interesting idea because that would go together with 2. Maccabees and all that - but purgatory most certainly is not a place of human happiness but suffering…but there is no other third place mentioned so this Sheol must be purgatory too…but that doesn’t make sense any more sins purgatory isn’t paradise. SO where were those souls that the Jews prayed for in 2.maccabees ? …how could they be helped by prayers if they went either to hell or to Abraham’s bosom which was a place for the just, a place of happiness?
Emil


#20

[quote=Thal59]In his discourse to the Greeks, Josephus points out that when a person dies they will either go to the bosom of Abraham, or they will be “pressed hard about the lake of fire,” where temporary punishments are inflicted on both. (In the sense also that both types will understand that their punishment is fair and just.)

For the condemned, it is the worm that ceaseth not (in addition to other unhappy maladies) which preceedes being cast into the lake of fire. For the just, these temporary punishments would constitute what we refer to as purgatory; paying satisfaction for one’s sins prior to being “cast” into heaven. (I never liked the idea of marching into heaven singing because I don’t have much of a singing voice. If the damned are “cast” into the lake of fire, why can’t I just be flung into heaven?)

This place of temporary punishments is referred to as the bosom of Abraham, the prison, sheol, purgatory. Christ accepted the thief’s surrender to Him, so they would both that day be in sheol, but for two different reasons. Christ to preach and then lead out, the thief to pay satisfaction.

Thal59
[/quote]

The Bible doesn’t describe the bosom of Abraham as a place of punishments, and Christ refers to this place as paradise, so how could it be equivalent to purgatory?


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