today's Mass readings (no Once Saved Always Saved)

Mon (5-11)

Acts 14:5-18:**

There was an attempt in Iconium by both the Gentiles and the Jews, together with their leaders, to attack and stone Paul and Barnabas. They realized it, and fled to the Lycaonian cities of Lystra and Derbe and to the surrounding countryside, where they continued to proclaim the good News. At Lystra there was a crippled man, lame from birth, who had never walked. He listened to Paul speaking, who looked intently at him, saw that he had the faith to be healed, and called out in a loud voice, “Stand up straight on your feet.” He jumped up and began to walk about. When the crowds saw what Paul had done, they cried out in Lycaonian, “The gods have come down to us in human form.” They called Barnabas “Zeus” and Paul “Hermes,” because he was the chief speaker. And the priest of Zeus, whose temple was at the entrance to the city, brought oxen and garlands to the gates, for he, together with the people, intended to offer sacrifice. The Apostles Barnabas and Paul tore their garments when they heard this and rushed out into the crowd, shouting, “Men, why are you doing this? We are of the same nature as you, human beings. We proclaim to you good news that you should turn from these idols to the living God, who made Heaven and Earth and sea and all that is in them. In past generations he allowed all Gentiles to go their own ways; yet, in bestowing his goodness, he did not leave himself without witness, for he gave you rains from Heaven and fruitful season, and filled you with nourishment and gladness for your hearts.” Even with these words, they scarcely restrained the crowds from offering sacrifice to them.

Ps 115:

Not to us, O Lord, but to your name give the glory…

St Jn 14:21-26:

Jesus said to his disciples: “whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him.” Judas, not the Iscariot, said to him, “Master, then what happened that you will reveal yourself to us and not to the world?” Jesus answered and said to him, “Whoever loves me will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him. Whoever does not love me does not keep my words; yet the word you hear is not mine but that of the Father who sent me. I have told you this while I am with you. The Advocate, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name - he will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you.”

*The Holy Spirit was the first Instructor, after Christ ascended… not the written Word…

It seems a lot of non-Catholics do not see that there is the Written Word and the UnWritten… (the Church/ the Holy Spirit)

Whoever loves me will keep my word. Those who say they are saved once and are saved no matter what they do from then on are deceiving themselves… True, when we love Jesus, we will want to keep His Word… but sometimes we humans don’t know what to do in a given situation & if one bleives in osas, s/he will rationalize all kinds of evils… that’s just human nature…

after all, if one is saved regardless, why be too vigilant about doing right at all? *

Belief in OSAS is belief in the mythical get out of jail free card.Christ expects us to participate in our own salvation.Mere acknowledgement of His Sacrifice is not enough.True belief (which in and of itself IS a work)is Love lived i.e. those Works that James is so insistant upon.

You seem to misinterpret the Bible. Salvation can only be had through God’s grace, not our meritous works. James didn’t say that Salvation came through works, he said that faith without works is dead. Christ paid the whole price for everyone who builds upon the Rock.

I think you might be misinterpreting Soutane here. I don’t think he says Salvation is by our meritorious works. I think he’s saying, we need to (in some way) participate with God’s grace.

I don’t think so. God’s grace cannot be merited. We live like Christ because by our faith in him, we are saved by God’s grace and Jesus lives within us. We cannot be inherantly “good” on our own. We are sinful human beings. We need God’s grace, period.

Romans 1:5 & 16:26 2, Timothy 2:12, 1 Corinthians 10:12, 2 Chronicles 15:2, 2 Peter 2:20-21, Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Hebrews 10:26-27,** and Hebrews 10:29 ALL say that we must endure to the end to be saved**.

Matt. 25:14-30** says that we must participate with God’s grace.**
For those who participate and are obedient to his grace he says:
***"Well done, my good and faithful servant. Since you were ****faithful *in small matters, I will give you great responsibilities. Come, share your master’s joy."

**In this parable, those who did the Lord’s will merited -that is - were rewarded by God. **

St. Thomas Aquinas, in his Summa Theologica pointed out that merit and reward were one in the same.
He goes on to say:
"Man’s meritorious work may be considered in two ways: first, as it proceeds from free-will; secondly, as it proceeds from the grace of the Holy Ghost."

Romans 1:5 & 16:26 2, 2 Tim. 2:12, 1 Cor. 10:12, 2 Chron. 15:2, 2 Peter 2:20-21, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Heb. 10:26-27,** and**** Heb. 10:29 ALL say that we must endure and live in obedience to the end to be saved.**

In Luke 9:23, Jesus says that we must pick up our cross daily and follow him. That’s not easy and requires participation in God’s grace.

You’re right - we ARE sinful and we NEED God’s grace. We can either accept it or refuse it. BUT, when we accept it, we MUST remain faithful and obedient.

You have a very protestant if not Calvinistic outlook of salvation-the antithesis of a Catholic one.I said NOTHING about meriting salvation.I cannot be saved without God’s Grace.I also cannot be saved without living my Faith-i.e. Good Works.Good Works will not get me to Heaven but a lack of them may damn me.You must PARTICIPATE in your own salvation by COOPERATING with the Grace God gave you.If you get a beautiful Christmas gift and leave it under the tree never opening it,it is the same thing as receiving God’s Grace and never Living it.Whose fault is that?The one who gives the gift or the one who receives it?I suggest you read the parable about the Master’s servants and the Talents.Don’t bury yours.:wink:

By the by we are not inherently evil-we have fallen natures caused by original sin which gives us the prediliction to sin and sin we all do.We are made in the image of God,which is hardly evil.The sin of Adam and Eve skewed and perverted our intended Nature which is why we must be Born Again through Baptism and continuously exorcise ourselves through exposure to the Sacraments,in particular Reconciliation and the Eucharist AND by doing Good Works(As Christ Himself instructs us)which is obeying what He Himself commanded us to do in the second greatest commandment…"Love each other…"Christ wasn’t referring to a feel-good kumbuya Love,He was referring to a Mother Theresa Love.Get it?:slight_smile:

[size=1]Of course the entire matter may be moot.

Catholicism holds that humankind is wounded in it’s nature.
Other Christian churches may hold that man is
depraved in nature, and that only Christ can save them from this state.

So often, there launches the works/no works debate,
*vis a vis *attaining eternal beatitude.

Judaic thought is far more concerned with this world.
The 'tikkun olam.’ The repairing of the world.
God is trusted - as to one’s eternal home.

Consequently, heaven is not a hardy topic of discussion.
Little time or energy is devoted to what happens after life.
This is a matter of profound trust in God.

reen12 :tiphat:

I’m hearing you, but you cannot participate in God’s grace without Christ working within you first. This is where Paul says that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ. It is Christ which lives within me. I can’t do it on my own. No human could or will. If I could keep from sinning, then Christ’s sacrifice for my sins wouldn’t have been necessary.

My parish priest has told me this same thing when we have discussed this in pretty deep detail, but he’s wrong because he and St. Paul obviously disagree.

how dead does a thing have to be you deem it entirely worthless???

yes we can if we “ingest” Christ, both spirually and phsycially… which we Catholics do with the Eucharist… Jesus said that if you eat his Body and drink his Blood you will have life in you… (st jn 6:27-)

We can have Christ’s goodness in us… and therefore “be good” truly… & the only way to do this is through the Eucharist… and staying faithful to Him… committed… (doing what he says)…

OSAS is NOT in the Bible… when someone asked Jesus what he must do to be saved, Jesus said to keep the Commandments… and give eveyrthin up to follow Him (to be perfect… as the Father in Heaven is perfect)…

I don’t disagree with that, but I say also that one can receive and not yet have any substantial faith in Christ which would just be plain worthless. Again, works do not merit Salvation, faith in Christ brings God’s saving grace.

OSAS is a very debatable topic even amongst Catholics. If you truly have faith in Christ, you cannot lose. The Catholic church, Mary and the saints, meritous works are all powerless to save. Peter and John both declared before the Sanhedrine that there is but one name by which we can be saved and that name is Christ Jesus.

I believe that you are either deliberately misinterpreting what I am saying or you are being obtuse.I NEVER said what you are saying I said.Faith ALONE appears no where in Sacred Scripture as a guarantee of Salvation.If you think you know more than your Parish Priest who has a degree in Divinity I’d give my noggin a shake.You’re wrong.Period.

Are you REALLY a Catholic?I have my doubts.No one here ever said"The Catholic church, Mary and the saints,meritous works are all powerless to save."I’ve heard plenty of anti-Catholic bigots claim that we believe that.Are you being honest in identifying yourself as a Catholic?

“OSAS is a very debatable topic even amongst Catholics”.Friend that is one of the most ludicrous assertions made by a “Catholic”,that I have EVER heard.OSAS is the antithesis of Catholicism and is in fact a Heresy.It is also a SIN-the sin of presumption.If you ARE a Catholic PLEASE read the Catechism of the Catholic Church,unstop your ears and listen to your Parish Priest.Your salvation may depend upon it.

Then you tell that to those Catholics who beleve it. Doctrine or not, some actually do believe in OSAS.

The way you question my faith is despicable. This in no way is better than the way the Sanhedrin treated our Lord.

Paul said in Scripture that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ. Do you see anything else there than brings forth God’s grace? If you do, then you either added it or you are dillusional. Keep thinking that you can work out your own Salvation, I’ll stick with the blood of the Lamb.

and Mt 18:23 which says that even after we have been forgiven of ALL our sins, we can then, by sin (in this case unforgiveness), LOSE that salvation… (the parable of the wicked - once-FORGIVEN - servant)

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