Tokyo introduces manga restrictions

bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-11998385

An appropriate response in a culture where the conscience is recognized.

Peace,
Ed

Wow, I hadn't heard a word about this in the news -- and I live in Tokyo. It is a much needed restriction; the manga I have seen people reading on the train have sometimes been shocking. Glad to hear about this new law.

I must say, however, that these past few years I rarely see people reading any manga on the trains; everyone is absorbed with texting or playing games on their cell phones. So the restrictions might not have the impact they would have about ten years ago. Then again, my observation is limited to the trains.

Thanks for the heads up.

The specifics of this bill bother me. That is, the laaack of specifics.
Your source for the article is lacking, it does not go into detail on the bill, like other sites and articles have....

Although.... Unfortunately, the bill ITSELF seems to lack detail. The news article you linked to puts the whole thing in a lot nicer of a light, and I wish it were that simple...

But this bill's got more than that article mentioned.

Here's the basic premise: The bill will go into effect next year, barring off certain content to people under 18.

It draws a line of "For children" and 18+, making the 18+ content hard to get a hold of.

I'm all for keeping porn away, BUT the bill, from what I've read SO FAR, has no clarification as to whether or not they actually mean just porn. Or if they may use the fuzzy gray area's of the bill as a loop hole to go ban crazy.

Clearly, pornographic and extreme violence would be barred off, in the 18+ section...
Buuut from what I understand the law says it specifically wants to get rid of content that would be "detrimental", in their words, to a young persons development.
That wording seems like a biiiiiig gray area right there. That bit of the bill is was worries me.

A big matter at hand, is trying to get rid of violent, sexual, crimes in anime, manga, etc.
But they don't specify what they mean by this. Getting rid of porn? That's good. They should do that.

But might they also try including things that mention or allude to such crimes in this regulation?

Because there's a difference between pornography, and mentioning to, alluding to, the fact that, say, a character in a manga was raped at some point.

Pornography is bad. Realism in fiction, and addressing such issues that exist in the real world is not.

**
BUT, to summarize my post in the simplest way.**
The banning the sale of porn to minors thing? Good. Very good.

The possibility that they might attempt to bar off non pornographic materials that contain some of the content they mention in the bill? A little unnerving.

I want more specific information on this before I could ever support it, but nothing more specific seems to exist at the moment. Waiting till they put it in actual effect, and give specifics.

Overall, this should NOT pose a problem to most mangaka, but if this law can be abused... Then that opens another can of worms.

(Aaaaand this is the part where my post gets eaten alive by crazy people.)

The article mentions rape, incest and other sex crimes. This sounds very specific to me. Freedom of speech is not unlimited. It's good to see the Japanese people follow their conscience.

Peace,
Ed

Thats really good that their putting that into effect. I loooove anime, but the porno stuff is gross. I stick to ghibli most of the time, those are very family friendly:thumbsup:

[quote="edwest2, post:4, topic:222828"]
The article mentions rape, incest and other sex crimes. This sounds very specific to me. Freedom of speech is not unlimited. It's good to see the Japanese people follow their conscience.

Peace,
Ed

[/quote]

The article you read and linked to here...
Not the full bill itself, which I doubt you've read further information on oustide of that article.

You also seem to have misundersood my point.

Did you only skim my post, or choose to ignore it? :(

[quote="Suni_Moon, post:3, topic:222828"]
It draws a line of "For children" and 18+, making the 18+ content hard to get a hold of.

I'm all for keeping porn away, BUT the bill, from what I've read SO FAR, has no clarification as to whether or not they actually mean just porn. Or if they may use the fuzzy gray area's of the bill as a loop hole to go ban crazy.

Clearly, pornographic and extreme violence would be barred off, in the 18+ section...
Buuut from what I understand the law says it specifically wants to get rid of content that would be "detrimental", in their words, to a young persons development.
That wording seems like a biiiiiig gray area right there. That bit of the bill is was worries me.

[/quote]

Actually, I hang with a lot of guys who download tons the R-18 stuff. The covers on the front do specifically state an age restriction. Hence, I actually find this bill more troubling than you.

Anime/manga covers a wide range of demographics and some can even start from one demographic but slowly get darker and darker.

[quote="Suni_Moon, post:3, topic:222828"]
A big matter at hand, is trying to get rid of violent, sexual, crimes in anime, manga, etc.
But they don't specify what they mean by this. Getting rid of porn? That's good. They should do that.

But might they also try including things that mention or allude to such crimes in this regulation?

[/quote]

This is exactly the sort of thing the mangaka, as well as anime fans, are afraid of. I've seen plenty of manga that while may not be pornographic, they seriously toe the line. If you're aware, the seinen genre is one place where you'll find plenty of those. Hence, the reason I wish this bill does not pass. I mean I've seen a lot of things in seinen that the likes of ed here would decry millions of times over, however that doesn't compromise the quality of their stories. On the contrary, it enhances it.

[quote="Lost_Wanderer, post:7, topic:222828"]
Actually, I hang with a lot of guys who download tons the R-18 stuff. The covers on the front do specifically state an age restriction. Hence, I actually find this bill more troubling than you.

Anime/manga covers a wide range of demographics and some can even start from one demographic but slowly get darker and darker.

This is exactly the sort of thing the mangaka, as well as anime fans, are afraid of. I've seen plenty of manga that while may not be pornographic, they seriously toe the line. If you're aware, the seinen genre is one place where you'll find plenty of those. Hence, the reason I wish this bill does not pass. I mean I've seen a lot of things in seinen that the likes of ed here would decry millions of times over, however that doesn't compromise the quality of their stories. On the contrary, it enhances it.

[/quote]

As much as I love seinen (Red Garden, Hellsing, Le Chevalier D'eon, and Gankutsuou are ohh, wonderful <3), seinen is a demographic, not a genre. A demographic that while not always porny, is targeted at adult men. And while many teenagers do read it, and I do worry about that... It's also targeted at an adult age range to begin with. So, yes, while it worries me....

It doesn't worry me as much as shojo. I'm a big shojo manga fan. Not of the fluffy, magical girl romance variety, but of the work of Kaori Yuki, early CLAMP work, etc.

Shojo IS targeted at a 10 - 16 or so age range... And some of it, specifically what I read, delves into areas this bill might want to snuff out.

(Kaori Yuki likes writing mystery and horror. While her work is on the older side of shojo, IE mid/late teens, it's still shojo and not josei. But she's done plenty of murder mystery, plenty of psychologically damaged characters, and it's pretty much a guarantee that in every series of hers you'll find creepy dolls, fairytale references, characters abused by their children, and villains who are the epitome of disturbed... )

So, I flip through a typical Kaori Yuki manga... the contents aren't really that bad, especially in their context... But take the risks of this bill and.... There goes Kaori Yuki's demographic, and therefore, there goes her career.

Which means there goes her support for her young children. So... I do not approve. I worry more about the mangaka themselves then I do the manga I enjoy reading.

The bill doesn't threat seinen and josei neeeeeaaaaarly as much as it threatens shonen and shojo. And thaaaaaat's my fear.

[quote="Suni_Moon, post:6, topic:222828"]
The article you read and linked to here...
Not the full bill itself, which I doubt you've read further information on oustide of that article.

You also seem to have misundersood my point.

Did you only skim my post, or choose to ignore it? :(

[/quote]

That would be in character for Ed, don't take it personally.

I thought you made a good point.

The viewing as to delight in something inherently degrading is wrong, whether the viewer is an adult or not; and it does harm to the viewer, whether adult or not. So materials that exhibit such degradation and elicit such sins ideally should not be available to anyone, including adults. Even if you are a libertarian, ideally no one should be making such materials and so they wouldn’t be available at all.

Freedom of speech is about speech that has some value either in itself or in what would be lost in its prohibition. In the case of pornography, there is no value in itself and nothing would be lost in its prohibition unless the law is written badly or judges interpret it badly. So I don’t think a legitimate civic value of freedom of speech should include any kind of pornography for anyone. The Catechism would seem to agree:

2354 Pornography consists in removing real or simulated sexual acts from the intimacy of the partners, in order to display them deliberately to third parties. It offends against chastity because it perverts the conjugal act, the intimate giving of spouses to each other. It does grave injury to the dignity of its participants (actors, vendors, the public), since each one becomes an object of base pleasure and illicit profit for others. It immerses all who are involved in the illusion of a fantasy world. It is a grave offense. Civil authorities should prevent the production and distribution of pornographic materials.

I think this should be a sixth “non-negotiable” especially since it’s explicitly mentioned in the Catechism.

[quote="paulinx, post:10, topic:222828"]
The viewing as to delight in something inherently degrading is wrong, whether the viewer is an adult or not; and it does harm to the viewer, whether adult or not. So materials that exhibit such degradation and elicit such sins ideally should not be available to anyone, including adults. Even if you are a libertarian, ideally no one should be making such materials and so they wouldn't be available at all.

[/quote]

You can't apply that to manga/anime. Its too simplistic. They're both a visual and literary art. I would like point out particularly the latter since not all stories are about white chibi unicorns and sugar puff meadows.

The delight one gets from stories is unique. It is not whatever degrading aspects you see in the story but the story itself, the sequence of events, that keep people reading. That in itself is a value that demands the protection of freedom of speech. However, as I said before, a story will contain degrading events because such events are necessary plot points. You can't tell a story about a rape victim without the rape. You can't tell the story about a Victorian girl's poverty-stricken childhood, without showing things such as her scavenging for food or worse, being kidnapped and sold to brothels. (Yes I'm talking about an actual manga here now.)

P.S.

As far explicitly pornographic materials go, you might have an upper hand. However, be wary that your claim of pornography having zero value will be heavily challenged by statistics. I'm not saying you're wrong because philosophically speaking, you are right. Right about porn's intrinsic evil. I'm only pointing out that the biggest blows to our side in the debate surrounding pornography are the statistics that seem to back up that porn lowers sex crime rate.

well i do agree that manga can get real down and dirty sometimes, i guess now they have to focus more on story than visual, i also do agree that some manga books should not be in the hands of children, instead of censorship maybe they can do a rating system… :rolleyes:

Using your criteria, it’s unconscionable to allow people under the age of 18 to read parts of the Bible. Let’s restrict the sale of it to minors as well.

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