tongues


#1

Hi,
I do not speak in tongues. Many members of the church I attend do. What is the catholic position? Do Roman Catholics speak in tongues? Does the Pope?
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic.com/images/icons/icon7.gif


#2

1 Cor 14:27-28
27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn; and let one interpret. 28 **But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silence in church ** and speak to himself and to God.

Verse 28 is the biggest bomb for those who speak fake tongues (and 99% of tongues aout there are fake). If you are amongst believer (in prayer group, church, meeting among fellow Christians, Charismatics group etc) and no one is doing the interpretation THERE SHOULDN’T BE ANY TONGUE SESSION TO BEGIN WITH! KEEP SILENCE! But if they keep flaunting their fake tongue, then it’s disobedience or a fake and those people need to be shown the error of their practice.

After knowing that it’s fake advise them. If they are being stubborn, shake the dust of your sandals/shoes.


#3

Peace be with you!

[quote=edwinG]Hi,
I do not speak in tongues. Many members of the church I attend do. What is the catholic position? Do Roman Catholics speak in tongues? Does the Pope?
[/quote]

[quote=beng]1 Cor 14:27-28
27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn; and let one interpret. 28 **But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silence in church **and speak to himself and to God.

Verse 28 is the biggest bomb for those who speak fake tongues (and 99% of tongues aout there are fake). If you are amongst believer (in prayer group, church, meeting among fellow Christians, Charismatics group etc) and no one is doing the interpretation THERE SHOULDN’T BE ANY TONGUE SESSION TO BEGIN WITH! KEEP SILENCE! But if they keep flaunting their fake tongue, then it’s disobedience or a fake and those people need to be shown the error of their practice.

After knowing that it’s fake advise them. If they are being stubborn, shake the dust of your sandals/shoes.
[/quote]

That was the question of edwin, and this was the answer of beng. Can we conclude from this that Catholics don’t have anyone with the gift to interpret?

In Love,
Yaqubos†


#4

no, we can conclude if we follow beng’s posts, that he does not usually speak from an authentic Catholic understanding on many issues.

There are many threads on these forums about the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, which has been endorsed by Pope John Paul II, who even issued a letter about it. There are prayer groups and whole parishes who worship through the charismatic gifts, in general not during the Sacred Liturgy, but who exercise these gifts under the authority of the Church. There are also, as with any movement within the Church including the most conservative and orthodox, those who would pervert the movement and the gifts for their own glory, sense of power, or even for money. The gifts exist, they are exercised, including the least, speaking in tongues. the works of Fr,. DeGrandis, Fr. George Monague, Francis McNutt, Fr. Michael Scanlan are good guides to the proper exercise of the Charistmatic gifts, and to the Catholic Charistmatic Renewal.

The Holy Spirit is active in the Church, and the CCR is only one manifestation of this activity.


#5

[quote=YAQUBOS]Peace be with you!

That was the question of edwin, and this was the answer of beng. Can we conclude from this that Catholics don’t have anyone with the gift to interpret?

In Love,
Yaqubos†
[/quote]

There are no valid interpreter from BOTH Protestant and Catholic.


#6

[quote=beng]Fr William Most on Baptism of the Holy Spirit

Some charismatics claim what they have is merely the activation of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, which does not happen in the usual Catholic. They call this Baptism in the Spirit. This too is a great error. All receive these Gifts along with sanctifying grace, and they have an increase at Confirmation and other times. But normally they do not show clear and overt effects until one is far advanced in the spiritual life - earlier, there may be latent effects. Still further, the effects of these Gifts are not the miraculous phenomena - that would be to confuse the sanctifying and the charismatic categories. Some also tend to be fundamentalistic in understanding Scripture.

[n]Many charismatics today are trying to say all Catholics must be charismatic, that “baptism in the spirit” was routine in the Patristic age. We find this clearly in a booklet, Fanning the Flame, by Kilian Mc Donnell (Liturgical Press,1991). He cites a few patristic texts to try to show these phenomena were routine in the patristic age. But the texts given are few, just three are given: Fairly clear are those of Tertullian, St. Hilary, St. Cyril of Jerusalem. But the booklet admits on p.18 that: “Both Basil of Caesarea… and Gregory Nazianzus… situate the prophetic charisms within the Christian initiation, though they are more reserved in their regard than Paul.” No quotes are given. Then we see a remarkable admission on St. John Chrysostom, quoted on the same page, “Chrysostom complained, however ‘the charisms are long gone.’” St. Augustine, in City of God (21.5), has to argue strongly that miracles are possible, against those in his day who denied the possibility. He says that if they want to say the Apostles converted the world without any miracles - that would be a great miracle. If there were miraculous gifts commonly around, Augustine would have merely pointed to them. But he did not.

Still further, historically. The miraculous gifts were common in Paul’s day, but at least by the middle of the next century became scarce in the mainline Church, but common in heretical groups. The present movement started in 1901 among Protestants. By 1925 there were about 38 denominations in the U.S. alone. Some decades later, in 1966. some Catholics, precisely by contact with the Protestants, asked that the Protestants lay hands on them, to receive tongues - for tongues were supposed to be the sign that one had been baptized in the Spirit.
[/quote]

“One Lord, one faith, one baptism


#7

Beng, With the countless numbers of posts you have on various christian sites, you have the gift of tongues and you dont even realize it. :smiley:


#8

There are two different “tongues” to discuss.

I have heard PRAYING in tongues many, many times (although I’ve never had the gift). This is the typical glossolalia that you often hear – a sibilance or babbling. Usually many people are praying in tongues at once.

There is also SPEAKING in tongues, which is what Beng refers to. According to the New Testament it does require interpretation. I have never been present where someone spoke in tongues, although if it’s good enough for JPII, it’s good enough for me.

Praying in tongues and speaking in tongues are two completely different things.

'thann


#9

There is not much point in persisting to shed light on the wide spread apostasy in the Church these days. People do not wish to hear it. There is just one observation I would like to make, and that is this: all those people, who are caught up in the renewal keep insisting on the Vatican’s support, but fail to follow faithfully the official communiqués of the same Pope they claim to emulate. When it comes to obedience, that entire adherence goes out of the window and their modernism kicks in. Let us pray for a conservative Pope who will finally have the courage for a bit of house cleaning.


#10

Then again there are those who do wish to discuss things of this nature.

An excellent point was brought up regarding praying in tongues. This is much different than speaking in tongues as it is a private conversation between you and God. As far as understanding the language, well, God understands all that is on our hearts when it comes to prayer.


#11

[quote=tru_dvotion]There is not much point in persisting to shed light on the wide spread apostasy in the Church these days. People do not wish to hear it. There is just one observation I would like to make, and that is this: all those people, who are caught up in the renewal keep insisting on the Vatican’s support, but fail to follow faithfully the official communiqués of the same Pope they claim to emulate. When it comes to obedience, that entire adherence goes out of the window and their modernism kicks in. Let us pray for a conservative Pope who will finally have the courage for a bit of house cleaning.

[/quote]

Excuse me, if you don’t mind, could you please give me your interpretation of what the charismatic movement “truly” is?


#12

Maybe someone here can help me out. I recently reviewed these forums ( and elsewhere) for information on the Charismatic Movement, along with “speaking (or praying) in tounges”.

In all of these forums I see the speaking/praying in tongues discussed but I can’t find any instance of someone, who has this gift, describing the sensation or the personal experience from within.

Things I’d like to know are:
When one is prayiong tongues is one aware of the sounds/words one is expressing?
Do the sounds being made make sense to the individual making them? In other words is there self-translating?
Does one feel completey overtaken, or is it more of a feeling of a changed mood?

The only experience I have of listening to someone speaking in tongues is from a radio broadcast where (I think) Ken Copeland and some other Pentecostal is having a “conversation” in which they appear to be communicating and understanding one another. There is a lot of laughter between them as if they are telling each other jokes in another language. I must admit here that I founf that particular experience to be artificial. It seemed totally non-sensical and disturbing.

I’d welcome any input that could give me a greater understanding of this.
Any input would be greatly appreciated.


#13

Mijoy2 Ill make an attempt to explain. There are two types of tongues used. Both are a gift from the Holy Spirit and are used for seperate purposes. The one Beng talks about is the speaking of tonques in front of the body. This tongue is to edify and build the body of Christ up. This person speaking this prophetic language [message] should also have the gift of interpretation in case there is no one to interpret it. If this person doesnt have the gift of interpretation and there is no one to interpret then all should be silent. Now part 2. The Gift of tongues is a Gift given to the believer as a prayer language. It is an angelic tongue that only the Holy Spirit understands. This tongue glorifies God . It is also used as a tool to fight off the enemy.This tongue is also manifested to those [if God wills it] who are baptised in the Holy Spirit.When I pray in tongues I dont know what im praying because I dont understand it but it frees my mind so that I can pray at the same time and focus on my Lord. I hope I have helped you to understand this Gift. Im sure there are others here who can expand on what ive said. God Bless. :thumbsup:


#14

Mijoy,

I do know about the others, but when I was instructed at my first Life in the Spirit Seminar, I just opened my mouth and started to babble. (I did what I was told to do) It did not pour out of me; I kept repeating a couple of syllables. In a week it developed into a few more syllables and I kept repeating the same for fifteen years. When I finally realized what I was doing, I prayed to God to take it away. It persisted, especially during mass. I would just mumble silently the same thing over and over again. How did it sound? I have no clue, I am not a linguist. (probably a cross between English and Hungarian. :smiley: ) Then I began to consciously NOT use it during the day and mass. I replaced it with real one liners, “Jesus have mercy on me a sinner” etc. Then one day it just disappeared. That is when I realized, it was not a gift from God, it was just a habit I developed. One has to break ones bad habits; one cannot pray to God to have them lifted. I mean if I chew my nails and I pray that God would take it for me… LOL… all I can say is good luck. But to answer your questions:

When one is praying tongues is one aware of the sounds/words one is expressing?

Yes.

Do the sounds being made make sense to the individual making them?

No.

In other words is there self-translating?

No.

Does one feel completely overtaken, or is it more of a feeling of a changed mood?

None of the above.

Hi Word, Why don’t you write sometimes?:slight_smile:


#15

[quote=tru_dvotion]Mijoy,

I do know about the others, but when I was instructed at my first Life in the Spirit Seminar, I just opened my mouth and started to babble. (I did what I was told to do) It did not pour out of me; I kept repeating a couple of syllables. In a week it developed into a few more syllables and I kept repeating the same for fifteen years. When I finally realized what I was doing, I prayed to God to take it away. It persisted, especially during mass. I would just mumble silently the same thing over and over again. How did it sound? I have no clue, I am not a linguist. (probably a cross between English and Hungarian. :smiley: ) Then I began to consciously NOT use it during the day and mass. I replaced it with real one liners, “Jesus have mercy on me a sinner” etc. Then one day it just disappeared. That is when I realized, it was not a gift from God, it was just a habit I developed. One has to break ones bad habits; one cannot pray to God to have them lifted. I mean if I chew my nails and I pray that God would take it for me… LOL… all I can say is good luck. But to answer your questions:

When one is praying tongues is one aware of the sounds/words one is expressing?

Yes.

Do the sounds being made make sense to the individual making them?

No.

In other words is there self-translating?

No.

Does one feel completely overtaken, or is it more of a feeling of a changed mood?

None of the above.

Hi Word, Why don’t you write sometimes?:slight_smile:
[/quote]

Tru, I am not sure I understand you answer. Unless what you are trying to tell me is that speaking in tongues, is in fact, non-sense.
Is this your point?


#16

[quote=Mijoy2]Tru, I am not sure I understand you answer. Unless what you are trying to tell me is that speaking in tongues, is in fact, non-sense.
Is this your point?
[/quote]

This is Tru’s personal experience. Obviously with that attitude, Tru cannot speak for the entire movement.

We do have some threads from good Catholics involved in the movement. I’m pressed for time right now—I’ll be back http://forums.catholic.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

(or maybe someone else will drop in)

SuZ


#17

[quote=tru_dvotion]Mijoy,

I do know about the others, but when I was instructed at my first Life in the Spirit Seminar, I just opened my mouth and started to babble. (I did what I was told to do) It did not pour out of me; I kept repeating a couple of syllables. In a week it developed into a few more syllables and I kept repeating the same for fifteen years. When I finally realized what I was doing, I prayed to God to take it away. It persisted, especially during mass. I would just mumble silently the same thing over and over again. How did it sound? I have no clue, I am not a linguist. (probably a cross between English and Hungarian. :smiley: ) Then I began to consciously NOT use it during the day and mass. I replaced it with real one liners, “Jesus have mercy on me a sinner” etc. Then one day it just disappeared. That is when I realized, it was not a gift from God, it was just a habit I developed. One has to break ones bad habits; one cannot pray to God to have them lifted. I mean if I chew my nails and I pray that God would take it for me… LOL… all I can say is good luck. But to answer your questions:

When one is praying tongues is one aware of the sounds/words one is expressing?

Yes.

Do the sounds being made make sense to the individual making them?

No.

In other words is there self-translating?

No.

Does one feel completely overtaken, or is it more of a feeling of a changed mood?

None of the above.

Hi Word, Why don’t you write sometimes?:slight_smile:
[/quote]

Hey Tru, long time, no see! :slight_smile:

I don’t exactly know what point you’re making, just because you faked a gift, doesn’t mean that others have. This is, after all, a GIFT, it isn’t something you can just obtain, it’s something that the holy spirit gives you. If you want the real thing, however, you must ask for it. It isn’t something that you can just obtain by saying syllables over and over again. We don’t practice this, this is, as Acts 2:4 puts it quite clearly, speaking in other tongues as the spirit enables us. :wink:


#18

Corpus, glad to see you have recovered! You were quite scary for awhile!:mad:

But I did not “fake” anything. That is what they teach, that is what happens.:smiley: That is what you have; you just don’t know it yet.:wink:


#19

Mijoy, yes it is nonsense. You can call it babbling. But basically, it is one and the same.


#20

[quote=tru_dvotion]There is not much point in persisting to shed light on the wide spread apostasy in the Church these days. People do not wish to hear it. There is just one observation I would like to make, and that is this: all those people, who are caught up in the renewal keep insisting on the Vatican’s support, but fail to follow faithfully the official communiqués of the same Pope they claim to emulate. When it comes to obedience, that entire adherence goes out of the window and their modernism kicks in. Let us pray for a conservative Pope who will finally have the courage for a bit of house cleaning.

[/quote]

Why the ‘apostate’? Housecleaning? All I can say is that if you don’t understand something don’t criticize it. Do you also hold such disdain for other charisms of the Holy Spirit? Is the prophet to be stoned and the healer tarred and feathered?

Often workings of the Holy Spirit are disrespected as ‘over-emotionalism’. Is there something dirty about emotion that we should denigrate it? I thought the Holy Spirit, whom Jesus sent to counsel us when he left this earth, is omnipotent and capable of moving as He pleases. I personally think that many Catholics have little experience with a personal and supernatural God. It is easier to relate to the natural world. You see, being open to the Holy Spirit means that you are not always in control of your life.

Beng, you might consider reading a Tan book- Angel of the Apocalypse, the account of St. Vincent Ferrer’s life. It is a complete fallacy to think the Holy Spirit and the charisms of his actions died out for a time in the Church. Ebb and flow may be more accurate. Why is it ‘wrong’ for Him to decide to pour out His Spirit anew in our time? It’s not like we don’t need His help.

I will readily acknowledge that there has been disobedience among Catholic Charasmatics. So what makes their sins any different than anybody else’s? I was at the national charismatic conferences during the 70’s and I heard a Cardinal, Bishops, and priests prophecy to the church to ‘take my Holy Spirit home and serve my Church’. I believe many found the cost too high, and tried to remain casually living with the Holy Spirit while not being obedient. I believe this is why so many of those groups faded away. If it were the time to do a final analysis I would venture to say that many of the Charasmatics I know who have tried to be faithful to the church are among the more orthodox Catholics that I know.

The purpose of the Holy Spirit is to strengthen and empower the Church to renewal and for the spreading of the Gospel.

I suggest to Beng and tru_dvotion to read JP2’s encyclical on the role of the Holy Spirit in the Church,Dominum et Vivificantem.

Also instructive is his apostolic letter, Novo Millennio Ineunte .


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