Top Trumps - Pope Urban II Card

I was flicking through my step-brothers Top Trumps cards he got for Christmas. The theme was Horrible Histories 'most cruel rulers' and guess who turned up? Let me quote it:

Pope Urban II wanted to win back the Jerusalem of the Christian Church. So he said to the knights of Europe, "Hey, God won't mind if you kill Arabs to get Jerusalem. In fact, he'll love you!". So the murderous Crusades started. Would the Christians win? Nope, the Pope was a dope.

His evil rating is 18/20, just 2 less than Hitler.

So, the anti-Catholicism really is starting to get out of hand!

Well, I can sorta-ish see why you’re offended, and I got a kinda UGH feeling reading some of that card.

BUT, this thread does remind me of something…
Bring up the crusades and it always = Catholic bashing around here. O.o
Always. I keep seeing this sorta thing…

But come on.
Christianity HAS had it’s low points. Crusades, Inquisition, all sorts of horrible stuff.
Not just Catholics, protestants too.

But why does EVERYONE get their knickers in a twist over it? Once I saw someone on CAF almost act defensive over the crusades. :confused:

When people try to use stuff like that to pin such horrible things on ALL Catholics, present and past, then naturally I take offense… But otherwise, I really don’t get it…

I mean, I’m not attacking anyone, I’d just like an explanation…

[quote="Suni_Moon, post:2, topic:223845"]
Well, I can sorta-ish see why you're offended, and I got a kinda UGH feeling reading some of that card.

BUT, this thread does remind me of something...
Bring up the crusades and it always = Catholic bashing around here. O.o
Always. I keep seeing this sorta thing....

But come on.
Christianity HAS had it's low points. Crusades, Inquisition, all sorts of horrible stuff.
Not just Catholics, protestants too.

But why does EVERYONE get their knickers in a twist over it? Once I saw someone on CAF almost act defensive over the crusades. :confused:

When people try to use stuff like that to pin such horrible things on ALL Catholics, present and past, then naturally I take offense.... But otherwise, I really don't get it...

I mean, I'm not attacking anyone, I'd just like an explanation...

[/quote]

Generally because if a secular organisation bring up the Crusades, they try to pin all the evils that happend in the Crusades on the Catholic Church, when the Muslims threw the first stone by being the first aggressor, and the attempted invasion of Europe.

While noone can deny the Church did committ great evils during the Crusades, what Western society is in denial over is that the Muslim countries commited great evils aswell, political correctness in the west means pretty much anything we admit we did evils, but deny anyone not from western society committed any evils, and we only tell the bad side of our history (atleast the UK) and ignore the great things we done, even though they were at the expense of other nations.

[quote="Suni_Moon, post:2, topic:223845"]

But why does EVERYONE get their knickers in a twist over it? Once I saw someone on CAF almost act defensive over the crusades. :confused:.

[/quote]

Because the Crusades and the Inquisition are the most overblown, poorly argued criticisms of the Catholic Church. 80% of the accusations thrown at us are straight up lies and most of it is dishonesty.

Do you really think that Pope Urban deserves to be in a pack of cards listed as a cruel leader, 2 points behind Hitler? Good grief.

[quote="Skeptic92, post:3, topic:223845"]

While noone can deny the Church did committ great evils during the Crusades

[/quote]

I agree with your post except this. This is secular society influencing you.

The Church does not, and cannot commit an evil.

People commit evils. Perhaps they do them in the Church's name - but that is no more the Church's fault than it would be President Obama's fault if I went and murdered 20 people 'in his name'.

I should have reworded it to say the Crusaders done great evils, thank you for pointing out my error (:

[quote="Skeptic92, post:3, topic:223845"]
Generally because if a secular organisation bring up the Crusades, they try to pin all the evils that happend in the Crusades on the Catholic Church, when the Muslims threw the first stone by being the first aggressor, and the attempted invasion of Europe.

While noone can deny the Church did committ great evils during the Crusades, what Western society is in denial over is that the Muslim countries commited great evils aswell, political correctness in the west means pretty much anything we admit we did evils, but deny anyone not from western society committed any evils, and we only tell the bad side of our history (atleast the UK) and ignore the great things we done, even though they were at the expense of other nations.

[/quote]

The UK was for a long time an effectively anti-Catholic state so drawing and equivalence between that state and the Church would be very dubious. The British Empire was not the worst empire ever seen in world history but at it's low points it did sink very low indeed.

Yeah. And as I said in my post I COMPLETELY AGREE when people are just using the crusades and inquisition to bash Catholics. I AGREE THERE.

Blown out of proportion? Well, yeah. Seeing how life generally was back then, everything should be taken in comparison. Those were rough times to live in, no matter what side you were on. People were brutal.

I mean, here in modern times we paint pictures of say, Vlad The Impaler: Horrible, sadistic ruler… But hey, he wasn’t the only guy impaling his enemies. Besides. There were worse methods of medieval execution. Like, say, sawing. D:

Likewise, comparing what the Catholic Church did at the time to everything else going on out there? No. It’s not too huge in comparison… It was a rough world to live it.

But it still ain’t good Christian behavior by any means. It’s still atrocious. Especially recruiting for said crusades.

I KNOW the anti-Catholic people use it as one of their many slaps to the Catholic faith, but it STILL isn’t a high point in the history of Christianity.

There’s been genuine corruption in our past, on a fairly large scale.
We’re only human. Pretending something didn’t happen doesn’t make it go away. Likewise, dwelling on it, and not forgiving ain’t too snazy either.

Suni Moon with all due respect, you sound like someone who hasn't quite reached the full understanding of the crusades, nor have you understood the real history of these "atrocities''. Secular society loves to use that kind of language while calling modern soldiers superheros. Secular society loves to say we were wrong in defending the world against Islam but that America is the worlds savior in the contemporary. Secular society tells us that because a few people and some clergymen made mistakes and perhaps committed unecessary evil that the institution itself is evil. That kind of reasoning has also been applied recently with the sex scandals and it is just ridiculous. Whenever you ask someone to realise that if that line of reasoning is true then every institution in the world is evil and 'supportive' of crime, watch them go straight to the insult and call you a peadophile enabler.

Too many double standards, too much false history, too many half truths.

[quote=Top Trumps card]Pope Urban II wanted to win back the Jerusalem of the Christian Church. So he said to the knights of Europe, “Hey, God won’t mind if you kill Arabs to get Jerusalem. In fact, he’ll love you!”. So the murderous Crusades started. Would the Christians win? Nope, the Pope was a dope.
[/quote]

Although the first Crusade can be faulted on some grounds (for example, attacks on Jews) what the card claims isn’t historically accurate.

First, many Arabs were (and are) Christian, so killing Arabs was not considered pleasing to God. Second, the first Crusade actually achieved its objectives. The pressure on the Byzantine Empire from the Seljuk Turks was alleviated, granting the Byzantines renewed vigor and enhancing the longevity of their nation.

The other major objective was also achieved. Jerusalem was captured from the Muslims, and maintained as a Christian-ruled city state for nearly 100 years.

[quote="Suni_Moon, post:2, topic:223845"]
Well, I can sorta-ish see why you're offended, and I got a kinda UGH feeling reading some of that card.

BUT, this thread does remind me of something...
Bring up the crusades and it always = Catholic bashing around here. O.o
Always. I keep seeing this sorta thing....

But come on.
Christianity HAS had it's low points. Crusades, Inquisition, all sorts of horrible stuff.
Not just Catholics, protestants too.

But why does EVERYONE get their knickers in a twist over it? Once I saw someone on CAF almost act defensive over the crusades. :confused:

When people try to use stuff like that to pin such horrible things on ALL Catholics, present and past, then naturally I take offense.... But otherwise, I really don't get it...

I mean, I'm not attacking anyone, I'd just like an explanation...

[/quote]

At the risk of getting too far afield, let's inject some history here.

Pope Urban II preached the first Crusade in order to alleviate ongoing abuse of Christians and Churches by Moslems.

The secular media likes to portray this as an unprovoked act of barbarism when the Moslems in the years after the death of Mahomet attacked and invaded North Africa, Persia, India, Palestine, Spain, Armenia, Syria and other countries.

There was almost 300 years of abuse by Islam before the first Crusade, not exactly un provoked.

The same "leading lights" that try to spread the 'unprovoked' lie will also try to tell you that the West went on Crusades to make money (the Crusader kingdoms were financial drains on the west, not sources of profit) and that the west was in a "dark age" which is more hoakum.

Who produced these cards?

**Exactly!

While many atrocities occur in every war, it is unfair & ignorant to blame the Church & the Pope for individual acts committed!

Without the crusades, all of Europe would have been conquered by & forced to become Muslim & we would all be Muslim, as most of our ancestors are European!**

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

**These same people take Jesus’ words & twist them to suit their evil purposes.

Jesus said; "“Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.” (MT 10:34).

Jesus was not advocating violence, as many anti-Christians claim, He was proposing just the opposite. Jesus was warning of the violence that Christians would endure for His Holy Name!

These idiotic cards are just another example of the intentional use of inaccurate quotations, taken out of context, just as many do with individual verses of Sacred Scripture!

Even the highly unreliable Wikipedia says; “There exists no exact transcription of Urban II’s speech. The five extant versions of the speech were written down quite a bit later, and they differ widely from one another.”

Unfortunately in today’s poorly educated, 30 second soundbite world, if someone says it, many people believe it, even many"catholics"!

We, as Catholics, must learn our Faith & defend it, as Catholic Answers helps us to do!

**
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

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