Please help me understand Tradition better:

  1. Holy Tradition is everything the Church has been handed by Christ.

  2. The Scriptures are part of this Tradition.

So when it is said that Revelation comes to us through Scripture and Tradition, Tradition in this sense means something partial (not including the Scriptures but things like how the Church lives, in the liturgy for instance), in contrast to the way I used Tradition in 1. where it meant everything, correct? So basically Tradition (capital “T”) can mean 2 different things if I understand correctly.

What about the Scriptures do you consider somehow “complete” (ie, not partial)? Our understanding of Scripture (and Tradition) continues to grow. The words of Scripture do not change, but our understanding of Scripture continues to develop.

Did the Early Fathers recognize the importance of John 3:16?

ALL doctrine develops. The apparent source is not relevant.

I think the word “Tradition” is sometimes used as including Sacred Scripture and sometimes as distinct from it. It depends on the context.

Is that what you mean? In both cases, I think Sacred Tradition is meant to include everything the Church teaches. Sacred Scripture, on the other hand, the Church permits us either to believe that it includes part of divine revelation or all of it in an implicit way.

  1. -]Holy Tradition/-] The Deposit Of Faith is everything the Church has been handed by Christ.

  2. The Scriptures -]are part of this /-]and Tradition are both part of the Deposit of Faith.

No. Divine revelation is transmitted in two forms, Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, to form the Deposit of Faith.

Here’s something that I have put together on this topic, and I’ll supply some links from CA that will probably be better.

*]Infallibility & How The Apostles Taught the Study of Sacred Tradition.
*]Tradition? No way!

From CA :thumbsup:

*]Can the Catholic Church list all the teachings given to the apostles by divine revelation and contained in Sacred Tradition?
*]Scripture and Tradition
*]Apostolic Tradition
*]Do our beliefs and traditions come from God or are they of human origin?
*]Should extra-biblical traditions have the same weight as those described in Scripture?
*]Is apostolic Tradition, apart from the Bible, inerrant or can it contain errors?
*]What do I say to someone who claims Tradition as his reason for rejecting the Church’s authority?
*]What exactly does the Church mean by tradition?
*]Why don’t Catholics just rely on the Bible and not their man-made traditions?

Dei Verbum:

Sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture form one sacred deposit of the word of God, committed to the Church.

But the task of authentically interpreting the word of God, whether written or handed on, (8) has been entrusted exclusively to the living teaching office of the Church, (9) whose authority is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ.

It is clear, therefore, that sacred tradition, Sacred Scripture and the teaching authority of the Church, in accord with God’s most wise design, are so linked and joined together that one cannot stand without the others, and that all together and each in its own way under the action of the one Holy Spirit contribute effectively to the salvation of souls.

This plan of revelation is realized by deeds and words having an inner unity: the deeds wrought by God in the history of salvation manifest and confirm the teaching and realities signified by the words, while the words proclaim the deeds and clarify the mystery contained in them. By this revelation then, the deepest truth about God and the salvation of man shines out for our sake in Christ, who is both the mediator and the fullness of all revelation.

Ok. My ideas are coming from:

  1. In the CCC there is a heading entitled “The Apostolic Tradition” that has underneath it info about how Sacred Scripture and Tradition is how Revelation comes to us.

  2. CCC 78 says:

Through Tradition, “the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes.”

Pope Benedict XVI repeats that saying:

The Church transmits all that she is and believes, she hands it down through worship, life and doctrine.

So it is that Tradition is the living Gospel, proclaimed by the Apostles in its integrity on the basis of the fullness of their unique and unrepeatable experience: through their activity the faith is communicated to others, even down to us, until the end of the world. Tradition, therefore, is the history of the Spirit who acts in the Church’s history through the mediation of the Apostles and their successors, in faithful continuity with the experience of the origins.

So all that the Church believes is handed down through Tradition, according to the above. Wouldn’t that mean Revelation since that is everything that the Church believes?

I didn’t mean to say I thought Scripture was “complete”.

I didn’t mean to say the Scriptures were “complete”.

An example is the Real Presence. Going by Scripture alone the doctrine can be plausibly supported or opposed, and Protestants argue with each other over whether or not Christ is really present in the Eucharist. But for the ancient Church, east and west, there is no argument, no place for it, because the Church simply carries on and maintains the practice and doctrine the way she received it and has always and everywhere understood and practiced it.

I didn’t think you meant this, which is why I asked you to clarify.

But you can see why I asked…



as Paul put it, 2 Thessalonians 2:15 Traditions that we are talking about are those that come from the apostles,.Both oral and written. **NOT **oral alone, NOT written alone, but both oral and written traditions and they are both authoritative for us.

Since THE Church the apostles are writing to and for, is the pillar and foundation of truth 1 Timothy 3:15 The Church is also authoritative . That’s the Catholic Church #[FONT=&quot]34 :cool:[/FONT]

Re: Revelation

*]Private Revelations
*]Can the Catholic Church list all the teachings given to the apostles by divine revelation and contained in Sacred Tradition?

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