i don’t know much about them, but why do they criticize the Vatican so much? i receive emails from a certain group and i suspect they are TCs, it bothered me coz i receive emails saing not-so-good things aobut the Vatican. they criticize the movie, they oppose priests playing sports, etc:confused:
Criticize what movie?
It all depends on what groups you are reffering to. Traditional Catholic is unfortunately very factioned.
I am a Catholic who is obedient to the Holy Father and the Magisterium. I regularly (but not exclusively) attend a TLM.
I don’t oppose sports, and I watch movies etc… but more and more I am coming to realise that everything that does not help us progress in our journey of Faith is so much dross.
My children complain that I am a hard person to buy presents for (birthdays & Christmas). It is true. I need nothing. I desire nothing except teir conversion.
Traditional Catholics, in the truest sense of the term, seek first the Kingdom of God and count all other things as vain.
Those who criticise the Vatican* instead of* praying for the Holy Father & the Magisterium are to be avoided.
I don’t know if it is Traditional Catholics as all Catholics should be Traditional. Isn’t tradition a good thing?
Maybe you are talking about Catholics who are so uptight they cannot enjoy being Catholic. Some don’t think the Pope is even the Pope. They reject everyone except themselves, almost as bad as the ultra liberal…
They are as bad as the people in this photo, which is hilarious.
Which ones are traditional and which ones are pushing for stuff like women priests?
Then there are faithful Catholics and they are traditional.
Every Catholic should be traditional and strict as that is the really essential to being Catholic. Traditional in the sense of holding values that are handed down from our Church tradition. Strict in rigidly upholding the teachings of Christ as He is God.
Anything less is not Catholic as it would be a compromised faith that doesn’t care about the truth of our faith in Jesus. Jesus doesn’t change with fashion or with opinions.
That doesn’t mean we cannot have fun, heck Jesus filled jars with wine at a party, He fed thousands of people and ate a huge picnic, He went sailing and even was a traveler.
I am true to the Catholic faith and I rigidly support all the Catholic Churches teaching, which means I am just trying to be a faithful Catholic.
Anything less is just Cafeteria.
We got a bunch of those and we need to reach out to them and show them the beauty of our Church, not with stupid womanly, kumbaya, watered down Catholicism but with the truth of Christ.
criticize Vatican and the nativity movie.
anyway, it juz bothers me why theyre being so stuffy, saying the clergy is lax, etc. at least those im getting from that Tradiational Catholic group.
I suppose it’s like some Southern Baptist churches or offshoots in Protestantism. (more Fundamentalism, give or take)
When I first saw the title of this forum, at first I thought it was about “old time” church customs (like Latin, and other stuff), but seems to be more about sedavancists (sp).
if they criticize the pope to the point of disobedience they are not traditional Catholics, they are not any kind of Catholic, they are dissidents, schismatics, and possibly heretics, depending on what they advocate. They are in the same basket as liberal dissenters like Call to Action and Catholics for Free Choice folks.
I have a problem with the whole notion of a thread with this title. Catholic and Traditional Catholic should mean the same thing, there should not be any dichotomy, as if anything else discussed here is not of interest to traditional Catholics.
but if it gets the debates on headcoverings out of the mainstream so I can bypass them more easily, I guess I can live with it.
“Is it Tradition? Then ask no more.” - Saint John Chryostom, Doctor of the Church
I agree with Jennifer G, the thread title should be sedevacantists.
Or maybe Catholics who complain a lot.
Traditional Catholics are just that Catholics who are faithful. It doesn’t make you any less Catholic to complain, just like it doesn’t make you any less Catholic to have some bad habits, we all have faults.
There are sedevacantists and there are Cafeteria\Dissident Catholics both define the Church according to their personal prejudices and some more or less state some fidelity to the Pope or none.
Very very true.
These types of ‘traditionalists’ give the traditional movement a very bad name - as evident by the types of posts already on this section of the forum.
“Disobedient” =/= “schismatic” - one can be either, without being the other. It’s very unhelpful to equate the two things, because neither need imply the other; they often are related in actuality - but they need not be.
FWIW, obedience can be massively damaging, if the obedience is to something unwise or immoral: there are very few absolutes in religion. Tradition isn’t absolute either - if it were, the Church would be eternally stuck in the past, and be absolutely forbidden to grow in wisdom or adapt to its surroundings. Which would mean that it had only the solutions of 300 or 1000 or 1200 or 1600 to the problems of 2000. Which would make it worse than useless
I have seen some criticize the Vatican, then I have seen some really criticize the Vatican and put it down. Criticism is not a thing when done properly.
As far as the Nativity movie I believe it’s most likely done more from a Protestant perspective (from what I read all over the net) and the actress was pregnant when she played the part (16 and not married).
I am what everyone would call a “traditional Catholic.” I miss attending the TLM so much and it is very difficult for me to go to the NO. About a year ago, I could no longer drive 2 hours to get to the TLM so I began attending the local NO. I felt it was pretty orthodox amd the priests are give very good sermons on subjects most churches don’t bring up anymore. So I began going to bible study and attending a parent/grandparent class on Sunday. I also attend RCIA while my grandaughter is in RCIC. The instructor knows I am traditional. She sees me where my chapel cap and receive Holy Communion on the tongue. She knows I will not do the hand holding during the Our Father and that I will not allow my grandaughter to be an alter server.
Here’s the reason we need this board for Traditional Catholics. This woman is a very good teacher, however she can be very cruel when it comes to tradition. She is a convert to the faith and even though she teaches Catholic the old comes through sometimes. She has made some very cruel remarks about tradition at times and she looks directly at me when she says them. She actually was very angry the last Sunday before Christmas. She got on a rampage and she stared at directly at me and yelled ***"so if your faith is all hocus pocus and ***magic then you aren’t a Catholic at all." We had been talking about the Rosary, indulgences, etc. I got home and just cried my heart out. I longed for the TLM and for the time when everything was the same in all Catholic Churches and for the reverence and beauty we have lost.
This week at Bible Study she brought up that she had to attend a meeting that the Bishop was really pushing. It is on Small Faith Groups. I said to her “Aren’t those part of Call To Action?” She smiled big and said “Yes!” I just looked at her and said “I’ll keep my mouth shut.” Another time she was talking about the Precepts of the Church and she said "these are what ***used to be ***called The Precepts of the Church."
The point is I am trying so hard to feel comfortable and be part of the parish. I do NOT push my beliefs on anyone. I do speak up is I think something being taught is not in union with the Catholic Faith. I am very respectful of everyone there. But I am treated differently just because I wear my veil, receive on the tongue, refuse holding hands, etc. I did go up to her after the incident about the hocus pocus and I said ____________, I know that some people get pushy with tradition and yell at you and want you to change, but I do not do that. I do not believe my beliefs or actions should be used to hurt anyone. She said “very well said” and I left.
So here I am on the traditional board so I can feel like I am not an outcast!
Welcome to CAF Winger! You will occasionally run into a lack of charity here as well. Do not be discouraged. You are not alone.
Fairly common attitudes of many catechists I’m afraid to say. But you really can’t blame them. That is what they are taught/ I know, I’ve been through catechist training, attend workshops and do everything I can to stay current so that I know what is being taught and I’m not just guessing… The general opinion is that before Vatican II we were all total idiots living in darkness, kept in bondage by the evil ordained Priesthood, reduced to mindlessly repeating rosaries:bigyikes: desperately awaiting freedom and the vernacular Mass. A lot of catechists adhere lock stock and barrel to the Christology from below model championed by Kung and Zanzig among others in which the divinity of Christ is downplayed and his humanity exalted. thus the comments about hocus pocus etc and the emphasis on Christ in the community rather than Christ in the Eucharist and on the altar.
They know full well how susceptible to manipulation new converts are, and see them as their trump card. If they can convince them of how bad things were then they’ve won. The sad thing is they’ve done it in many cases. Some of the most vocal critics you will find of the Traditional Mass and the pre-conciliar Church in general, are converts and Catholic graduates of various CCD Programs, who weren’t around prior to the council and wouldn’t be caughjt dead at a Traditional Mass
I’m not saying all are bad, nope, I’m sure they have some good orthodox ones floating around. There must be.
And just in case anyone feels the need I’ll save you the trouble and say it for you.
PALMAS 85 IS MEAN SPIRITED, UNCHARITABLE AND INDECENT:bigyikes: :bigyikes:
She is absolutely correct in this.
However the problem is that she seems to have no understanding of the Rosary and indulgences, etc and they are not “hocus pocus”
Maybe the problem is that they have a convert leading RCIA.
We had the opposite problem, our Deacon pushed Medjugorje and Conyers, GA fake apparisions. I know of two people who couldn’t take it and left.
So the question is, why aren’t you correcting her?
She now is using you as a whiffle ball, bouncing her hate off you.
Stand up and start correcting her. Those other souls in RCIA need you. What can she do? Kick you out?
She is wrong, you know better, arm yourself with knowledge and shut her down.
The other people there will see your devotion and while she may not want to talk about it, they will think about it.
She is WRONG, they need your help.
Eventhough the name may be misleading, since all catholics inherit the living tradition of the Holy Church, but some only care to recognize the same, and if they desire to be known to be a traditional catholic as a lot many are there who doesnot care for the catholic tradition, what is wrong. Vatican Council II aimed at evangelizing the modern man. Well and good. But the evangelization should be based on the gospel message and the living tradition of the church, and not in the lines of those who what to promote their hidden agenda of propogating a church of their own interest or convenience. The nativity movie, if in any way, is belittling the Catholic faith, it should not be promoted by the Church. Actually the traditional catholics suffer a lot in heart, in the present plight of the catholic church, where the Holy See is even prosecuted for involvement in child molestation scandal, and is defending the case stating sovereign immunity. Repent and Believe in the Gospel as handed over to us through the living tradition of the Church and make the Gospel light shine for all who are in need of Christ. As Pope Benedict has observed the world stands in dire need of Christ and we have to carry forward the mission with enthusiasm and commitment.
I am reading a book called “Self Improvement”, written in 1939 and distributed by Roman Catholic Books. It is a reprint. I realized that I cannot be effective when I break down in tears every time I am extremely offended … as I was the day of the hocus pocus. I do generally speak up and am immediately slammed back down. This woman is very intimidating and as I said can be very cruel. I am too sensitive, thus the book. I need to change, I know it and I am working on it. Meanwhile I am almost ready to go to Father with some of these things. I am going to make a list and see what he says.
We actually have no converts this year. Not one person coming into the church. All that are there are some teens needing confirmation and a few children in RCIC needing 1st Holy Communion.
Here’s one thing that really scares me. I am a divorced and remarried Catholic. I went through and received annulment and my marriage is Blessed in the Church. It was very difficult for me and I finally went to a theologian and ask him how we could be certain that annulments were OK, with all the talk about so many being given. He assured me that Peter had been given the keys to heaven and that what the church forgives is forgiven and what it doesn’t forgive isn’t. Well this teacher told us a story about her annulment. ***She said she tried for 8 years to obtain an annulment so she could become a Catholic and they would not give her one. Then one day she received a job offer in another state … another diocese. She applied in the new diocese and was granted her annulment. Pow … there went my security!!! *** How can this happen in our Church? She talked about it being God’s answer to her prayers. I call it a manipulation of the church. If all was as it used to be that would never have happened.
I am also doing my own Bible study at home and Apologetics. I am learning everything I can so I can do just as suggested above. She told me … I am trying to bring you out because you could be a teacher … YOU KNOW YOUR FAITH. I know there is no way anyone would ever allow me to teach there and that she despises the fact that I know my faith. That is very apparent.
It is so hard … but I am determined and I won’t let my sensitivity get in my way. I will learn how to change and I will change.
Thanks for the welcome and replies!
As far as I am concerned, a traditional Catholic is simply one who tries to follow his or her faith, practice correct morality, and who normally attends Mass on Sunday. I grew up in the 1950’s in the pre-Vatican II Church. I really think that Vatican II was necessary to keep the Church from straying too far away from where the Holy Spirit knew it should be. Of course, it is possible to stray too far in the other direction, too, so I guess that is why some people are emphasizing the old ways.
I think that going back to a Latin Mass in general would be practically impossible, except in limited circumstances. My generation grew up with Latin, but most people these days wouldn’t know Latin if they saw it walking down the street.
I might not like cell phones, but that is the reality of this century. I really think that if I formed a group of people who wanted to abolish cell phones and go back to regular phones I would really be out of luck. The same concept applies to going back to pre-Vatican II.
I was too young to be upset when the Church changed after Vatican II. I actually liked the changes. The only thing I didn’t like was what they did to the inside of the churches.
I think it does look funny to have a whole forum dedicated to “traditional Catholics”. I thought the Catholic Church was supposed to be One, Holy, Catholic or UNIVERSAL, and Apostolic.
It is and was. The whole problem can be summed up in your second to last paragraph. The inside of the churches, it’s not just about the architecture but about the reverence shown, now granted some places do have a lot of reverence and others (a lot others) don’t. Should the Church try to keep up with the times or does the Church mean more?
One thing that really made it hit home for me was when I was welcomed in to the Church my Dad remarked that it was no different than a “regular church” meaning in his case the Assembly of God church my parents went to. Then he said something that struck me “I thought they would be more reverent” when I ask him what he meant he said that the Church use to seem more in awe, more reverent than most protestant churches. Now there was no real reason to stop going to his church. (Which is the first time that I realized he thought of converting)
It was then that I wanted to find out what it was like “back than” and I started becoming a Traditional Catholic. It’s more than just going to Mass and doing everything just right, it’s about reinstalling the reverence and awe and majesty that was lost when people in authority started using “Spirit of Vatican 2” instead of what it really said.