TRADITIONAL cf. Novus Ordo

I tried the Ask an Apologist but the queue is full, so meanwhile…

Please could someone succinctly outline the main differences/changes wrought by Vatican ll, esp. with ref. to the Mass - and what are the big objections (to some)? Why?

Oh yes and what’s the Tridentine Mass? (For those with only three teeth?! Ok just joking. I really do want to know!)

Thankyou

Elizabeth:

First your last question: the Tridentine Mass, also known as the “Traditional Latin Mass” or the “Old Mass”, was the normative Mass for (most) Catholics before Vatican II. Now the norm is the Novus Ordo, and the Tridentine Mass may only be celebrated with a special permission, or indult.

The most noticeable change after Vatican II is the switch from Latin to the vernacular. Other than that, a couple differences between the Tridentine Mass and the typical Novus Ordo are:
[list=1]
*]The Prayers at the Foot of the Altar, taken from Psalm 42, used to be prayed by the priest and altar boys at the very beginning of Mass; they’ve now been dropped. (My signature comes from the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar.)
*]The Liturgy of the Word has changed. It used to consist of one reading (usually from an epistle) and two Gospel readings. The epistle and first Gospel reading were proper (changed every day), but the second Gospel reading was almost always the beginning of John.
*]The Canon of the Mass, including the Consecration, used to be said in a barely audible whisper.
*]At the Consecration of the Wine, the Priest used to say, “…which shall be shed for you and for many unto the remission of sins.” Now he says essentially the same thing, except that he says ‘all’ instead of ‘many’.
*]Before Communion, the priest, and later the people, said the Centurion’s Prayer (“Lord, I am not worthy…”) thrice, instead of the once that is the norm now.
*]At Communion, the priest prayed over each communicant, “Corpus Domini nostri Iesu Christi custodiat animam tuam in vitam aeternam. Amen.” (May the Body of our Lord Jesus Christ preserve thy soul to life everlasting. Amen.) The communicant did not say “Amen”.
*]No one–at all–received the Eucharist in the hand.
*]After Low Mass, the priest and people used to pray the Leonine Prayers together.
[/list]Those are the major differences you might notice if you went to a Tridentine Mass.
As to what has many Traditionalists upset, there are a couple of things. While it’s a lot more complex than this, the main issues are:
[list=1]
*]In #4 above, the changing of ‘many’ to ‘all’ may possibly invalidate the Consecration (not true).
*]They mistakenly cite a papal bull, *Quo Primum, *and claim that no one had the right to change the Mass (even though it has been changed many other times since the bull was issued).
*]Finally, they feel that Mother Church has abandoned many of Her teachings (also not true). For example, many feel that She has changed Her teaching about salvation outside the Church.
[/list]Hope that helps some, even though I’m not that good at explaining all this. :thumbsup:

Thankyou so much; this is exactly what I had hoped for. Very helpful.

I’m no expert on the exact details, I’m sure you will get better responses from others here before too long… but since it looks like you are looking for mostly the “external” differences–the primary differences that you would notice as a typical lay Mass-goer, I will try to give you a brief overview of the basics.

First, very short history lesson. The “Tridentine” Mass dates officially to the Council of Trent back in the 1500s, but the rite itself has elements that can be traced all the way back as far as the Church Fathers (including Justin Martyr back in around 120AD). So, the “Tridentine” Mass is historically speaking the traditional rite of the Catholic Church.

Enter Vatican II… This council, which is to be considered an authentic Church council (contrary to what many traditionalists say), as part of its work attempted to initiate reform of the liturgy. Sadly, some of this reform has been misinterpreted by liturgists (and worse than that…) but the correct teaching of Vatican II does include a “New Order” of the Mass. This “Novus Ordo” Mass is now in use throughout most of the United States (except for a few parishes with permission to continue to celebrate the Tridentine Mass, and a few parishes who DO NOT have permission to celebrate the Tridentine Mass but do anyway)

So what are the big differences (at least the obvious ones to all the laity who attend)??

First, the language. The Tridentine Mass is ALWAYS celebrated only in Latin, with only the homily (and the Gospel?) in the vernacular (in America, English language). Today, most places that have the Tridentine Mass offer the use of a Missal that has the translations from Latin to English, so you can sort of follow along. However, you must remember that under the Tridentine rite, “following along” is not of the same importance as it is to many who go to the current Novus Ordo Mass… you do not need to truly follow every line in Latin with understanding, nor are you supposed to.

Second, the length. The rite of the Tridentine Mass is more elaborate and complex than the current Novus Ordo Mass–and thus lasts longer when celebrated correctly (the one in my area is usually between 1 1/2 - 2 hours long).

Third, the vestments. The Tridentine clothing for the celebrating priests and servers is the “old” style, very interesting looking and eye-catching. Also, there can be no female altar servers under the old rite–and there are a lot more servers than we typically see in the new one. The parish in my area tends to have between 10 and 15 altar boys at each Mass.

Fourth, the position of the priest. The celebrant of the Tridentine rite generally faces the altar/tabernacle (usually towards the east), not towards the people.

Fifth, the congregation ONLY receives Holy Communion on the tongue (not in the hand), and only while kneeling at the communion rail. There is no “pew-by-pew line-up” like at the Novus Ordo Mass, instead generally people just go up and wait in line as they feel ready to receive. This may sound inefficient, but in actuality it moves just as quickly (I think) as the modern style. Plus, a bonus of this method is that it relieves the pressure of someone feeling as though they “have” to go to Communino even if they are in a state of mortal sin (the “everyone in my pew is going… people will notice if I don’t” problem).

Sixth, generally speaking, nobody attending a Tridentine Mass would think of wearing jeans, t-shirts, shorts or any other casual clothes. Many women who attend wear a hair veil (though no, it is not required or necessary–I do not wear one myself). Large families (with 8 or more kids!) are usually in attendance.

This is NOT to say that the Novus Ordo Mass is “bad” or “wrong” or even “invalid” (!) as some have said. The Novus Ordo Mass done as it should be according to the rubrics is a beautfiul and reverent celebration of the Sacrifice of Calvary and there are many many parishes that do this to the best of their ability.

However, the current Pope has made it clear that the tradition of the Tridentine Mass rite is to be an option for those faithful who would prefer to worship God in this manner. Unfortunately, many clergy do not see the need to fulfill this desire of the Holy Father, and refuse to allow an official diocesan-approved Tridentine Mass to be offered in their parish or diocese. It is most often in these cases and dioceses that the extreme traditionalists (who have split from Rome, saying that the Novus Ordo Mass is invalid and that there is no authentic Pope in the See of Peter) have large followings. :frowning:

For those in the Archdiocese of St. Paul/Minneapolis, our indult (approved) Tridentine Mass is held every Sunday morning at 11:30am at St. Augustine’s parish in South St. Paul. Fr. Echert (of EWTN fame :slight_smile: ) and Fr. Ubel are the typical celebrants, both of them are very good and holy priests.

The main differences between the Novus Ordo and Tridentine missal go as follows(aside from the language differences)

1.) The Novus Ordo and Tridentine missals use different lectionaries.(Liturgical Callendar)

2.) The Novus Ordo has options to use different prayers such as the penitential rite and the Canon(Eucharistic Prayer)

3.) The Tridentine mass had strictly enforced rubrics(rules), while as done today, the Novus Ordo can be all over the place. Case in point as follows…

While I have never been to either of these parishes, nor the Minneapolis-St. Paul area, there are two parishes that show the extreme. One is St. Joan of Arc parish in Minneapolis MN. While they technically use the Novus Ordo missal, they usually replace the first reading with some religous themed, typically new age, “reflection”, they have laity give out the sermons, and of course, they have liturgical dancers and folk music.

Conversely, also using the Novus Ordo missal, a few miles away is St. Agnes, a parish that has a “high mass” in Latin that would be difficult to tell the difference from the Tridentine high mass. The priest faces the altar, only altar boys are used, only priests and deacons give out communion on the rail on the tounge only.
The Second Vatican council never meant to have all these different options, and have this confusion, and my guess is St. Agnes is far closer to what the Concul had in mind that St. Joan of Arc parish.

One more thing: In the Tridentine Mass, the Sacred Blood was not given to the congregation.

veritas writes: Plus, a bonus of this method is that it relieves the pressure of someone feeling as though they “have” to go to Communino even if they are in a state of mortal sin (the “everyone in my pew is going… people will notice if I don’t” problem).

This is a biggie, IMO. It isn’t just those in a state of mortal sin, but all non-catholics as well are not supposed to receive Communion in the Catholic Church. So non-catholics either have to just disobey the rules and receive anyhow or call a huge amount of attention to themselves, the other people there think they just took an ax to the whole family or some other grave sin.

The general rule about everyone being expected to receive will either create disrespect for the rules or a general reluctance of non-members to even come in.

[quote=+veritas+]First, the language. The Tridentine Mass is ALWAYS celebrated only in Latin, with only the homily (and the Gospel?) in the vernacular (in America, English language).
[/quote]

The readings (Epistle and Gospel) are read from the pulpit in the vernacular before the sermon. Also the announcements, if any, precede the sermon rather than coming at the end of the Mass.

PEDANTRY ALERT!

Although currently the traditional Mass is only celebrated in Latin, before the liturgical “reforms” it was celebrated in Slavonic in Croatia and the surrounding regions (what used to be Dalmatia) and in Greek, occasionally, in Rome. The Slavonic liturgical books were written in the Glagolitic alphabet, which was the first alphabet developed by SS. Cyril and Methodius in their evangelization of the Slavs. It is a beautiful but complicated alphabet.

Mass in Latin is Back
AZ Republic, Michael Clancy, June 5, 2004

azcentral.com/arizonarep…atinmass05.html

The news article above lists a few of the differences in the right sidebar.

I:) believe it is important to point out that since the year 1988, the traditional (and beutiful) Tridentine Mass according to the 1962 —Roman Missal, can be celebrated.:clapping: According to Pope John Paul II’s document: “Motu Propio Ecclesia Dei.”:bowdown2: The Pope says in the afformentioned document that he exhorts all Bishops to provide the Tridentine Papal Indult mass:dancing: and since 1988 the Tridentine Latin Mass has continued to grow in popularity, especially in the United States, thanks to the Pope and the faithful Bishops who “permit” it’s celebration in certain designated parishes of their dioceses. Though I personally don’t see why anyone (some have) would say, that the Tridentine Mass is boring or out of date. Let us not forget it was the mass the great saints of the church attended (codified by Pope Saint Pius V after the Council of Trent) attended: Saint Theresa of Avila, Saint Ignatius Loyola, Saint John Bosco, Saint Philip Neri, Saint Charles Borromeo, etc, etc,.
Here in New York City, thanks to Cardinal Egan, we have the Tridentine Latin Mass every Sunday at 11:00AM at Saint Agnes in Manhattan. Also, at Our Lady of Mount Carmel National Italian Shrine Church on East 115th Street in Manhattan, and recently added: every first Sunday of the Month at Saint Benedict’s Church in the Bronx; and the Tridentine Papal indult Latin Mass continues to grow:tiphat: However, I love and value in it’s totality the Novus Ordo Mass, IF it is celebrated/offered accordind to the CORRECT liturgical books, and does not become the priest’s OWN little Mass according to his own whims: dropping a rubric here and there because he is in a rush to see a ballgame. I avoid all Novus Ordo Masses IN WHICH I see electric guitars, drums, etc. After all, a Mass celebrated like that IS NOT HOW THE ACTUAL VATICAN II DOCUMENTS SAY A MASS IS TO BE CELEBRATED.
One interesting point: Most people who NOW attend the Latin Tridentine Mass(of the indult) are usually young adults, and those in there 30’s. Not like some say: “only those born before Vatican II atend.” I persoanlly attend once a month or so the Indult Tridentine Mass at St. Agnes, and ONLY!! the Novus Ordo at my home parish, in which the great NEW religious Institute (an order founded in 1985) celebrates it word by word according to the books/rubrics and where as Vatican II states, the ORGAN is the musical instrument of choice.:clapping:
On the same token: we must be careful with CERTAIN traditional groups who are schismatic, and who have gone as far as saying (heretically) that the Novus Ordo is not valid, and that there has not been a valid pope since Pius XII. Those groups are not in communion with Rome, and hence are in grave schism.:frowning:

Not that we have drums and electric guitars at ‘our’ Parish but what on earth (!) is wrong with them?

ps. I am not yet a Catholic and so am one who stands in a pew to let others past for the Eucharist - you get used to it - or goes up to be blessed most often - which is wonderful to me. I find it very helpful to know what I am saying Amen to but I can see why the Tridentine Mass would be appealing.

What is wrong with drums and electric guitars?

Its all about holiness, reverence, and worship. In most circumstances (not always), these instruments just aren’t conducive to it.

Listen and meditate to chants and polyphony in Latin. Then ask youself: which is more likely to lift my soul to heaven in a spirit of worship in the presence of the Lamb of God and His Holy Altar?

[quote=dts]Listen and meditate to chants and polyphony in Latin. Then ask youself: which is more likely to lift my soul to heaven in a spirit of worship in the presence of the Lamb of God and His Holy Altar?
[/quote]

Latin is not more “holy” in and of itself. I know, I know… it’s the “official” language, etc. But I don’t know it, I have no real need to learn it. A visiting priest said a few of the prayers in Latin at our church once, and everyone thought they were either Italian or a really bad Spanish. Latin is no “magic potion”.

To bring it back, you’d have to have a big re-education program since it has not been commonly taught in the schools for 2, maybe 3 generations now. And we’ve got bigger problems than that these days.

Agreed. Latin is not more holy or magical. But, it does have 17 or 18 centures of tradition/history behind it. It also has a way of flowing very nicely in the chants which reach their pinnacle in the expression of the Psalms.

Bottom line: we simply have not developed the kind of rich musical heritage in the English language that is available to us in the Latin and there doesn’t seem to be much of a move to do so. see,CCC 1156-58

Instead, we bang on the drums and play the electric guitar. They have their place, but we can probably get better drums and electric guitar outside of church.

P.S. For a variety of reasons, latin is making a comeback in the educational scene! Stay tuned!

I’ll Take Latin over ICEL emasculated Translation of the Mass.

[quote=Melman]Latin is not more “holy” in and of itself. I know, I know… it’s the “official” language, etc. But I don’t know it, I have no real need to learn it. A visiting priest said a few of the prayers in Latin at our church once, and everyone thought they were either Italian or a really bad Spanish. Latin is no “magic potion”.
[/quote]

Latin is more holy in and of itself – it is the sacred language of the Church. It is more holy the same way that ancient Greek is more holy to the Orthodox, the way that Hebrew is to the Jews, the way that classical Arabic is to the Mussulmans. It’s not a “magic potion”; it’s the language of the angels.

To bring it back, you’d have to have a big re-education program since it has not been commonly taught in the schools for 2, maybe 3 generations now. And we’ve got bigger problems than that these days.

It’s not necessary for the laity to understand perfectly all the prayers of the Missal. I don’t think many people do, anyway, even if they are in the mother tongue.

[quote=dcs]It’s not necessary for the laity to understand perfectly all the prayers of the Missal. I don’t think many people do, anyway, even if they are in the mother tongue.
[/quote]

Huh?

PSALM 150, 3-5

“Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet, praise him with the harp and the lyre,
praise him with tambourine and dancing, praise him with the strings and flute,
praise him with the clash of cymbals, praise him with resounding cymbals.”

(What was the ‘Holy’ language of David’s time, by the way?)

Actually, I do love listening to and ‘meditating’ on God through more ‘classical’ or peaceful music including ‘Ubi Caritas’ by the Taize Community and Irish Gaelic music by Maire Brennan. I am wonderfully inspired to worship God by rousing choral or operatic music, including ‘The Trumpet Shall Sound’ from Handel’s Messiah. Certain rock music also stirs me to praise God from the heart, like Graham Kendrick’s ‘I kneel Down’ and Darlene Zschech’s ‘Shout to to Lord’.

No, not all is going to be appropriate for worship within the Mass but if we are just talking what’s Holy - set apart unto the Lord - then I am sure that it was the Holy Spirit who also inspired these other writer’s to bring forth these magnificent and beautiful songs and music. There is such a rich variety of Holy music - let’s not impose an artificial limit on our enjoyment, our freedom and capacity to worship God.

Of course, any form may be used or distorted by the enemy.

[quote=Melman]Huh?
[/quote]

Brilliant! :smiley:

[quote=Elizabeth]PSALM 150, 3-5

“Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet, praise him with the harp and the lyre,
praise him with tambourine and dancing, praise him with the strings and flute,
praise him with the clash of cymbals, praise him with resounding cymbals.”
[/quote]

Is that what happened in the Temple? In the Holy of Holies? Because that is what the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is analogous to.

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