Traditional Latin Mass not in union with the diocese


#1

I just visited a new Traditional Roman Catholic Church near me and talked to the priest there. He said that he wasn’t part of the diocese and he did everything according to before Vatican II. He showed me the church. It was truly beautiful. Now my question.

Would it be a valid Mass? But not licit? And can somebody please explain what is the difference between valid and licit? What about the sacraments? Thanks for any help.


#2

[quote=moira]I just visited a new Traditional Roman Catholic Church near me and talked to the priest there. He said that he wasn’t part of the diocese and he did everything according to before Vatican II. He showed me the church. It was truly beautiful. Now my question.

Would it be a valid Mass? But not licit? And can somebody please explain what is the difference between valid and licit? What about the sacraments? Thanks for any help.
[/quote]

Is this place is actually being advertised as a “Traditional Roman Catholic Church” you might have stumbled onto a Protestant denomination…


#3

the Eucharist is valid, only if his ordination was valid and his matter, form, and intent are valid. It is illicit, which means it is unlawful according to the Code of Canon Law. Canon law is binding upon all Catholics. Breaking the law is a sin.

As for some other sacaments, such as confession, they are not valid, as confession requires the priest to be incardinated in the Catholic Church. There are exceptions, (in case of danger of death), where the Church supplies the jurisdiction. This is the same for any schismatic group whose priests are validly ordained, but not incardinated.


#4

The least situation you have here is Heresy. Those who refuse to adopt the teachings of the church are in Heresy. After all the church counsels, dating back to the early church, There have been small groups of people who would not accept the teachings. A priest who is not in union with his diocese has no official faculties to say Mass, Preach, or Hear Confessions in that diocese. Those who attend this church are not in union with the Holy Father.

May God bless you for your faith.
Deacon Tony SFO


#5

I recommend the following short book by Msgr Ronald Knox:
The Church on Earth: The Nature and Authority of the Catholic Church, and the Place of the Pope Within It


#6

I suggest the following Traditional Latin Mass, which is licit within the Diocese of Phoenix:

[left]Parishes of the Diocese of Phoenix[/left]

[left]Latin Mass[/left]

1:00 PM Sunday

St. Thomas the Aposle
2312 East Campbell Avenue
Phoenix, AZ 85016-5597

ContactOffice of Worship
602-354-2112


#7

the latin mass is not valid, you are supposed to do what the coucil of vatican 2 said not before it! those priests should be excommunicated, the latin mass is no good, well it’s no good today because we are living in the spirit of vatican 2, but it’s HISTORY!. Today’s mass however is completely better , you actually feel good and serve in the community and you stand in the lord’s presence and serve him. From what i heard from my grandmother it seemed like it was all solemn back then in the latin mass. Common people, the church has changed in the spirit of vatican 2! Let’s rejoice instead of living in the past!:smiley: :smiley: VATICAN 2 RULES!!!:wink: :smiley:


#8

im feeling good today… PRAISE THE LORD!!! :smiley: :smiley:

:blessyou: Podo the hobbit


#9

the latin mass is not valid

theologyreview.com/ubb/graemlins/no7.gif

Here’s some photographs of Cardinal Hoyos celebrating Tridentine Mass in basilica of St Mary Major, Rome

If it’s invald, he’s got some ‘splainin’ to do. maritime-sda-online.org/ubb/icons/icon16.gif


#10

Pope John Paul II says,

“[R]espect must everywhere be shown for the feelings of all those who are attached to the Latin liturgical tradition, by a wide and generous application of the directives already issued some time ago by the Apostolic See for the use of the Roman Missal according to the typical edition of 1962.”

(Apostolic Letter Ecclesia Dei, 6c)

I’m a big fan of the current edition of the Roman Missal, particularly if it’s celebrated in Latin, with Gregorian Chant, Sacred Polyphony and the use of the pipe organ— which is what the Second Vatican Council explicitly intended.

However, while I’m enthusiastic about the present Mass, I wouldn’t denigrate previous liturgical forms, as it appears to go against the grain of the Pope’s quotation above.


#11

the latin mass is not valid

Podo, That’s heresy to say that.

Also, maybe the reason you love the NO Mass so much is because it was made to ease the “stumblings blocks” with “our seperated brethen, the Protestants”? Or is it because the main author was kicked out of the CHurch after ecidence linked him to Freemasonry?

  • Joe

#12

[quote=Marines]Or is it because the main author was kicked out of the CHurch after ecidence linked him to Freemasonry?
[/quote]

As far as I know, Bugnini was appointed Apostolic Pro Nuncio to Iran. Is that what you meant by him being “kicked out”?


#13

There are many places that have a Latin Mass that are in full union with their Bishop and the Pope. We begged a former pastor to celebrate a Latin Mass. He did so with permission. We have an approved Latin Mass at regular intervels in our diocese. After our Latin Mass, there was some that really had trouble following the Mass. We had folders with the English and the Latin, but when you are use to participating in English, it takes some practice to keep up. Latin remains the official language in Church Documents and in the heart of the Church. It will be around as long as the church is.

Deacon Tony SFO


#14

:blessyou:

[quote=itsjustdave1988]theologyreview.com/ubb/graemlins/no7.gif

Here’s some photographs of Cardinal Hoyos celebrating Tridentine Mass in basilica of St Mary Major, Rome

If it’s invald, he’s got some ‘splainin’ to do. maritime-sda-online.org/ubb/icons/icon16.gif
[/quote]

he certainly does…lol
Podo the Hobbit


#15

[quote=Marines]Podo, That’s heresy to say that.

Also, maybe the reason you love the NO Mass so much is because it was made to ease the “stumblings blocks” with “our seperated brethen, the Protestants”? Or is it because the main author was kicked out of the CHurch after ecidence linked him to Freemasonry?

  • Joe
    [/quote]

Joe
it is not to ease the “stumbling blocks” with “our separated brethen, the protestants” that is not my reason at all.(geez whenever i express my opinion on stuff like this , you think im a protestant or want to make ease with the protestants) I’m just curious why most people like the old tridentine mass and really really like it and respect it yet can’t give a care in the world for the new mass(as if the old mass was the most special thing in the world:rolleyes: ) Where did the spirit of vatican 2 go? Aren’t we as catholics supposed to follow that and not the old stuff? I mean we’ve moved on… we need to change with the spirit of vatican 2.
I’m still learning Joe as i am still young, but my assumption is that if the church has moved on with the spirit of vatican 2 aren’t we supposed too? Instead of living with the past before vatican 2.
That is just my opinion…
podo the hobbit:blessyou:


#16

[quote=Podo2004]the latin mass is not valid, you are supposed to do what the coucil of vatican 2 said not before it! those priests should be excommunicated, the latin mass is no good, well it’s no good today because we are living in the spirit of vatican 2, but it’s HISTORY!. Today’s mass however is completely better , you actually feel good and serve in the community and you stand in the lord’s presence and serve him. From what i heard from my grandmother it seemed like it was all solemn back then in the latin mass. Common people, the church has changed in the spirit of vatican 2! Let’s rejoice instead of living in the past!:smiley: :smiley: VATICAN 2 RULES!!!:wink: :smiley:
[/quote]

  1. “living in the spirit of vatican 2”: Lots of awful stuff going on using this excuse!

  2. “From what i heard from my grandmother it seemed like it was all solemn back then”: It was all REVERENT back then. People of all backgrounds blended together in every church everywhere. Latin united the world. We participated by reading along in our missals.

  3. “Common people, the church has changed in the spirit of vatican 2!”: I don’t mind being called a Catholic, part of the one holy and universal worldwide Catholic Church, and as such, please do not call me a common person, I consider that as somewhat demeaning. Each person is a unique creation of God. Thank you.


#17

I mean we’ve moved on…

I don’t know who you mean by “we.”

Pope John Paul II encourages his bishops to allow the Traditional Latin Mass. Appearantly his legislative authority is not good enough for you? Why do you deny the validity of this papal-approved liturgical rite? On the contrary, “we” have never moved on to the heretical notion that the Traditional Latin Mass was ever invalid.

I personally prefer the current Roman Missal, but I don’t deny the validity of the over 20 approved liturgical rites of the Catholic Church, the Mass of the 1962 Roman Missal being one of them.

If you are still learning, Podo, I suggest you read Cardinal Joseph Ratzingers book, *The Spirit of the Liturgy. *You can read excerpts here: unavoce.org/articles/2002/ratzinger_spirit_exerpt.html


#18

[quote=itsjustdave1988]I suggest the following Traditional Latin Mass, which is licit within the Diocese of Phoenix:

[left]Parishes of the Diocese of Phoenix[/left]

[left]Latin Mass[/left]

1:00 PM Sunday

St. Thomas the Aposle
2312 East Campbell Avenue
Phoenix, AZ 85016-5597

ContactOffice of Worship
602-354-2112
[/quote]

Thanks Dave! Actually the Tridentine Mass at St Thomas is the Mass I go to every week. My husband and I are in the Latin Mass choir. But I saw this little church and thought I’d look at it. As soon as the priest told me that he wasn’t connected to the diocese, I knew I wouldn’t ever go there. But it was still nice to talk to him.
I just seem to have a problem understanding valid and licit. I always thought that they were the same thing. How can something be valid and not licit and vice versa?


#19

[quote=Podo2004]the latin mass is not valid, you are supposed to do what the coucil of vatican 2 said not before it! those priests should be excommunicated, the latin mass is no good, well it’s no good today because we are living in the spirit of vatican 2, but it’s HISTORY!. Today’s mass however is completely better , you actually feel good and serve in the community and you stand in the lord’s presence and serve him. From what i heard from my grandmother it seemed like it was all solemn back then in the latin mass. Common people, the church has changed in the spirit of vatican 2! Let’s rejoice instead of living in the past!:smiley: :smiley: VATICAN 2 RULES!!!:wink: :smiley:
[/quote]

I’m sorry, but I totally disagree. The Latin Mass is valid if there is an indult from the bishop. And I don’t think today’s Mass is completely better. I ‘feel’ much better after I have been to a Tridentine Mass. The new Mass leaves me cold.


#20

[quote=moira]I just visited a new Traditional Roman Catholic Church near me and talked to the priest there. He said that he wasn’t part of the diocese and he did everything according to before Vatican II. He showed me the church. It was truly beautiful. Now my question.

Would it be a valid Mass? But not licit? And can somebody please explain what is the difference between valid and licit? What about the sacraments? Thanks for any help.
[/quote]

The only "schismatic" group of Traditional priests whose orders are without question are valid are the SSPX. Some "independent" priests who were ordained by dioceses and religous orders in union with Rome also have valid orders. That said, when one goes beyond that, they potentially go to what I like to call Liturgical non denominational Christians. 

I think that if the indult is offered in good faith, as it has been in Pheonix, it is the duty of Catholics who support the TLM to attend it.

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