Traditionalists and Judaism

I notice that among traditionalists that there is a real antipathy towards Judaism. They seem congenitally disposed to this form of bigotry. This is often the reason they reject Vatican II and John Paul II. Although they often try to hide their anti-Semitism it usually slips out. Now I am quite conservative and traditional, but I don’t have such visceral hatred for Jews. What is it with these guys?

I’ve noticed this as well. A lot of of their writings that I might otherwise enjoy is ruined by snide asides about Jews or outright calumnities about Jewish conspiracies. I’m not sure where this comes from except maybe that a lot of their source material comes from an earlier, more humanly bigoted time in our history in which this kind of talk was more common.

[right]JMJ + OBT[/right]

I’ve noticed this too, though I don’t have any analysis to offer. When I come across these sentiments in print or on the web, I just shake my head and offer a quick prayer to Jesus and one to Mary, both Jews.

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.

IC XC NIKA

the traditionalists I’ve run into tend to be very angry people in general; if their hearts are full of CHristian love, it isn’t very apparent at all. They dislike many groups of people, so I’m not surprised they aren’t fond of the Jews. anti-semitism is one tradition that I’m glad to see dying out among the rest of us Catholics!

[quote=cestusdei]Now I am quite conservative and traditional … What is it with these guys?
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If you were as traditional as you claim, you wouldn’t be slandering traditional Catholics, nor would you need to ask what the antipathy is about.

If you’re interested in learning the truth you could start by reading the Gospels.

[quote=cestusdei]I notice that among traditionalists that there is a real antipathy towards Judaism. They seem congenitally disposed to this form of bigotry. This is often the reason they reject Vatican II and John Paul II. Although they often try to hide their anti-Semitism it usually slips out. Now I am quite conservative and traditional, but I don’t have such visceral hatred for Jews. What is it with these guys?
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Hey Cestusdei!

When one follows leaders that have got “things” wrong, then …

“Bishop Williamson is the rector of the Society of Saint Pius X’s Saint Thomas Aquinas seminary at Winona, Minnesota; he is one of the bishops consecrated by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre. He is, of course, well known among traditional Catholics; however, perhaps less well known is his sound knowledge regarding the Jews”.

The rest of the article is here:

jloughnan.tripod.com/sparwill.htm

G.Grace

Some more!

I think it is very sad with the split in Church, SSPX-es vs “Novo Ordo-Catholics”. It is also sad, that some or many of the SSPX-es seems to hate jews just because they are jews.

The next sentences are to be found at a “conservative catholic” website:

"The Liberal Catholics of our country are now making another concession to Interfaith charity and Brotherhood benevolence. They are saying, “It was not the Jews who crucified Christ; it was the Romans.I should like to ask these Liberal Catholics a few pointed questions on the subject of Our Lord’s death. Was it the Romans who came out to seize Him in the Garden of Olives with swords and clubs on the night of His Passion, and who brought Him bound to the High Priest, and then to Pontius Pilate, demanding that He should be killed?
Was it a Roman who betrayed Jesus with a kiss, and was it to Romans He was sold for thirty pieces of silver?”

h t t p : / / www . h o l y w a r . o r g / j e s u s . h t m

A lot of decent catholics will be shocked if they do some some research at google (at net) and use the searchword: h o l y w a r

If it is true that the SSPX-es hate the jews so much, we have the right to know. Because if it is true, we must try to make them understand this message: "Looking to the future of relations between Jews and Christians, in the first place we appeal to our Catholic brothers and sisters to renew the awareness of the Hebrew roots of their faith. We ask them to keep in mind that Jesus was a descendant of David; that the Virgin Mary and the Apostles belonged to the Jewish people; that the Church draws sustenance from the root of that good olive tree on to which have been grafted the wild olive branches of the Gentiles (cf. Rom 11:17-24); that the Jews are our dearly beloved brothers, indeed in a certain sense they are “our elder brothers”. John Paul II (in part V. Looking together to a common future) in COMMISSION FOR RELIGIOUS RELATIONS WITH THE JEWS - WE REMEMBER: A REFLECTION ON THE SHOAH.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_16031998_shoah_en.html

It is also worth reading:

MEMORY AND RECONCILIATION: THE CHURCH AND THE FAULTS OF THE PAST: (I know you are a priest, Cestusdei, and then know the documents, but perhaps someone else want to look at the following):

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000307_memory-reconc-itc_en.html

**“If you love me, you will keep my commandments” (John 14:15)

“–one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. 36‘Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?’ 37He said to him, ‘”You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.” 38This is the greatest and first commandment. 39And a second is like it: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” (Mat 22:35-40)**

G.Grace

Traditionalists tend to be more aware of the hatred for Christ, Mary, and Christians that is in the cannon of Judaic holy books than progressive Catholics are.

Traditionalists are more knowledgable of, and stronger adherants to Church tradition and it’s teaching on the matter of Judaism pre-1963 than progressives who’s knowledge of, and adherance to church teachings pre-1963 tends to be limited.

[quote=cestusdei]I notice that among traditionalists that there is a real antipathy towards Judaism. They seem congenitally disposed to this form of bigotry. This is often the reason they reject Vatican II and John Paul II. Although they often try to hide their anti-Semitism it usually slips out. Now I am quite conservative and traditional, but I don’t have such visceral hatred for Jews. What is it with these guys?
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What do you mean, Father??? SHow me some websites

[quote=Gratias Grace]Hey Cestusdei!

When one follows leaders that have got “things” wrong, then …

“Bishop Williamson is the rector of the Society of Saint Pius X’s Saint Thomas Aquinas seminary at Winona, Minnesota; he is one of the bishops consecrated by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre. He is, of course, well known among traditional Catholics; however, perhaps less well known is his sound knowledge regarding the Jews”.

The rest of the article is here:

jloughnan.tripod.com/sparwill.htm

G.Grace
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Well, mr.Loughnan and some others are some of the people who hate the SSPX because they went to SSPX chapels and something/body got them angry which caused them to get angry and curse the SSPX with all their might. An example of this is the “SSPX is a cult” website. THe author of the website uses both sedevacantists and indult priests to insult the SSPX. That’s like using atheists and Orthodox to insult the Catholic CHurch!

[quote=katolik]Well, mr.Loughnan and some others are some of the people who hate the SSPX because they went to SSPX chapels and something/body got them angry which caused them to get angry and curse the SSPX with all their might. An example of this is the “SSPX is a cult” website. THe author of the website uses both sedevacantists and indult priests to insult the SSPX. That’s like using atheists and Orthodox to insult the Catholic CHurch!
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Please, don’t take this wrong… But, why do you stick up for them so much? just out of curiosity. disobedience is disobedience… I am strictly curious that’s all…

I went to a website called Catholicism.org. It had pretty much all the traditionalist stuff you could find from the far-right. There was a candle whose flame was burning the flag of Israel. I went on the Saint Benedict Center (Feeneyist) and said I would not go there again if they are making the flag an effigy of Jews. One responded that it was not against the Jews as a people, but against the secular Israeli state and (based upon other stuff I’ve read of theirs)secular atheist (or severely liberal) Jews believed to be causing problems today for all Christians.
It’s possible that some prominent ones attacking Gibson’s film were (like the Pharisees) an elite band of puppets of a modern Roman empire (and not a holy one either, to say the least) that makes them think they have some control (though I cannot be sure there is such a link or association); whereas others not connected with the Democrat Party or other anti-Christian elites (not all in the party being anti-Christian, but it’s the direction the party seems to have gone), like Michael Medved, found no fault (worth an outrage, at least) in it. Maybe they will wake up, like those in AD 70, and try to rage against the machine and get stomped as well.
The Bible had sour notes about Jews in it, I think, but it was written by ethnic Jews. I mean, ethnic Jews did sentence Jesus to death, but ethnic Jews did cry out for Jesus to be given to themselves so that Jesus might live. Jews did harass and kill early apostles and disciples but they did also convert–one famous one being Paul. Sometimes you have to generalize when talking about a whole group because you can’t mention every exception (though you could mention there are exceptions–something they didn’t do a whole lot of in the old days) . Hillaire Belloc wrote a book called “The Jews”, but I haven’t found it in any local Catholic bookstore. I’d be interested in what it has to say.

The Fraternity of St. Peter and other Ecclesia Dei traditionalists shouldn’t be mixed in with these far-righters (some of whom think the Ecclesia Dei orders are suckers who will get the shaft by the Vatican, though I say they will get the shaft as Catholics and not schismatics). I haven’t heard a hateful thing about Jews. Not all far-right traditionalists should be bunched in with the angry bunch who seem to hate Jews. Did Mel Gibson say hateful things about that Morgenstern woman in his movie? I think it is easy to be angry and polemic and no more productive than the left is destructive regarding Catholic culture when you see agents of evil (whether they are such–some are–and whether it’s intentional–for some it is their wish to do so) destroying the culture that had been building up organically by holy inspiration for almost 2 millenia before the 1960s. I think they go too far in what targets they choose and what they say about those targets, but I feel their pain.
Our church building and worship already had some Protestant songs, a priest walking out of the sanctuary to shake hands, and the tabernacle on the side and out of the sanctuary. I was raised post Vatican 2 and didn’t notice anything wrong or weaker about what I saw and heard. I had never heard of EWTN at Catholic school. In recent years, however, they have taken out the altar rails, don’t sing songs I remember growing up and added ones from other countries and Protestant hymnbooks, added server girls, holding hands at the Lord’s Prayer and then some, and clapping for the choir. Having gone to Latin masses and watched EWTN more and more, I have found it more and more troublesome, but not the worst I’ve seen. The question is not what has been changed, but why (is it necessary to accentuate the horizontal so badly with more focus on the community of believers?) and where (is this going in its leftward direction?).

No need to show websites. Just look at St. James’ posts. He is a sspx’er or affiliated type. Hates Jews with a passion. Probably doesn’t believe the holocaust happened. No doubt is a sedevacantist into the bargain. If he thinks I am wrong then he can say so. So far nothing but silence. My views are always out in the open. Why do people hide their real opinions and affiliations? Are they secretly ashamed of what they believe?

[quote=AmyS]Please, don’t take this wrong… But, why do you stick up for them so much? just out of curiosity. disobedience is disobedience… I am strictly curious that’s all…
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The SSPX is doing much good that you and I don’t know aboutI know a little about this. We should be thankful for this.

[quote=St. James]Traditionalists tend to be more aware of the hatred for Christ, Mary, and Christians that is in the cannon of Judaic holy books than progressive Catholics are.

Traditionalists are more knowledgable of, and stronger adherants to Church tradition and it’s teaching on the matter of Judaism pre-1963 than progressives who’s knowledge of, and adherance to church teachings pre-1963 tends to be limited.
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Father I truly don’t see what is wrong with this post…
Actaully this fear of being called antisemitic is insane.
Polish WW2 veterans asked for a Mass to be said at Auschewitz for the dead soldiers and civilians in the camps. The Polish Episcopal Conference declined on the grounds of not upsetting the Jews, who made a fuss about this. These men defended Poland from the strongest invasions of WW2. Poland had more German soldiers on her soil than all other countries and the Soviets also joined in the killing of Poles. These men and their friends fought for Poland and the protection of the Church but no on could give them one Mass!! Since no other priests would come, Fr.Stehlin SSPX[a german by nationality] packed his chalice and chasuble, took ten altar boys, and went to Auschewitz to say a sung Mass.

[quote=St. James]Traditionalists tend to be more aware of the hatred for Christ, Mary, and Christians that is in the cannon of Judaic holy books than progressive Catholics are.

Traditionalists are more knowledgable of, and stronger adherants to Church tradition and it’s teaching on the matter of Judaism pre-1963 than progressives who’s knowledge of, and adherance to church teachings pre-1963 tends to be limited.
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Oh yes Father.
A book on the Talmud and what it contains with an imprimatur
www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/judaism/talmud.htm

[quote=St. James]Traditionalists tend to be more aware of the hatred for Christ, Mary, and Christians that is in the cannon of Judaic holy books than progressive Catholics are.

Traditionalists are more knowledgable of, and stronger adherants to Church tradition and it’s teaching on the matter of Judaism pre-1963 than progressives who’s knowledge of, and adherance to church teachings pre-1963 tends to be limited.
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I think that we as THE Catholic Church shall respect what has been said by the pope (JPII) about jews as our elder brothers.

It is not a matter about who betrayed Jesus (the jew Judas) and who was it that wanted him crusified (some jews). Jesus himself has said: **"For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you; 15but if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses” (Mat 6:14). ** The same is in the prayer Our Father: ”---- And forgive us our debts, As we also have forgiven our debtors …”

Our job is not to hate, but to love and forgive.

If people want to disagree with zionism, that is something else. That has to do with not wanting a BIG-ISRAEL at the expense of the palestinians. Some People want that, but that is not in agreeement with the ”Roadmap for Peace” that USA, EU, UN and Russland all agree about. (I know this forum is not about the Middle-East).

What I want to say is that anti-zionism and anti-semetism is two differnt ”things”. Anti-zionism is to be against a BIG state named Israel. Anti-semetism is to be against jews generally (even if they are secular jews).

**It is not right for christians to hate. This the traditional catholics also have to understand. **

When it comes to other religions. The cathechism is clear about that . Every religion (even the nature-religions) have some longing for God (our God)! (CCC 839-848).

What is happening now, especially in Europe, and that can also be a reality in USA if nobody stops it, is that more and more people don’t feel ashamed when they use almost the same anti-jewish propaganda that was used against jews before WWII and the gaschambers.

IT IS NOT CATHOLIC TO BE A PART OF A MOVEMENT THAT WILL DESTROY JEWS ONLY BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS!

G.Grace

As a Traditional Roman Catholic (one who does not call into question the validity of the Novus Ordo, accepts Vatican II as a true ecumenical council, accepts John Paul II as the Holy Father, but will raise my children with the Traditional Latin Mass (Mass of Pius V) and all the sacraments as they were presented in the liturgical books as of 1962), I too have always noticed a very anti-Semitic strain to some parts of the Traditionalist Movement.

I have never held these beliefs and am a tremendous supporter of the State of Israel. However, I still hold to the 2000 year old doctrine of “The Great Commission.” Regardless of Cardinal Kasper and most of the Church’s hierarchy and their warped post- Vatican II ecumenical understanding, the “Theology of Return” is still relevant to ALL non-Catholics. The Jews can find salvation in Jesus Christ ONLY! Period.

I myself have been critical of some Jews for the statements made about The Passion. Such things are fair game. However, to pose the idea of a Jewish conspiracy. To try and slip in ideas from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. To make false claims. For example I have repeatedly challenged St. James to tell me of one personal example where a Jew had tried to harm or kill him. He could not do so. Certainly we disagree with Judaism theologically. That too can be debated with them. And yes we should evangelize everyone. But to villify Jews in the fashion that Traditionalists all to often do is is simply a sin.

The leaders of Judaism vilify themselves sufficiently enough to convince any reasonable person who witnesses their words and writings. They contain much hatred for Christ, Mary and Christians. No effort beyond exposing their own words and writings is needed.

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