Traditionalists not attending Novus Ordo


#1

Hello,

I go to a new university which is too conservative compared to most of today’s Catholicism.
Many Pre-Vatican II stuff are made, and they say it is alright, and I have no problem with it.

However, this attracts many Traditionalists (and Ultra’s), and thus the environment can become a little dense/tense and they make some claims which leave me with many questions.
Among them is this:

I’d like to know what to do with my friend, she is a very close friend of mine, yet it makes me very sad because she disaproves completely of Vatican II and believes Novus Ordo is not a valid Mass, she sympathizes SSPX, she loves the Tridentine Mass and even refuses to go to Novus Ordo Mass, even in Ash Wednesday.
At my university they offer Novus Ordo Mass in Latin, and she only attends this on Sundays, and she doesn’t attend daily Mass simply because it is all Novus Ordo (even if it’s in Latin).
What am I to do or tell her to bring her closer to God and the Church?


#2

There’s nothing wrong with not going to daily Mass or only going to at Latin Novus Ordo. That said, if she were to refuse to attend Mass on Sunday because it wasn’t the TLM or the Latin Novus Ordo, that would be a problem. At this point she must believe the Novus Ordo in Latin is valid if she will at least go to that, right? I do find it sad that she will miss a Mass just because it’s not in Latin if she is inclined to go to daily Mass and she can’t get to a TLM. Pray for her. I’ve found that people who feel this way will usually not change their minds by something we say but by their own studies.


#3

I study all the time and…it just gets worser n worser.http://debt-consolidation-credit-repair-service.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/Tempted.gif


#4

:wink: Then perhaps bear’s first suggestion would be best. Pray for her.


#5

Unfortunately there are not enough Tridentine Masses around to keep all traditionalists happy and this is a real problem, whether you accept the Novus Ordo as valid or not.

But as long as you’re on the Latin Novus Ordo, the words of consecration are actually different than they are in English or many other languages. I myself have no problem accepting the validity of the Latin Novus Ordo (or even the Polish) Novus Ordo but I admit I do have a serious problem with the English Novus Ordo. Pray for me all you want but Christ did NOT use the words “for all” when He consecrated the bread and wine.


#6

The Eucharist was confected when Jesus said it was. “For many” was just him telling the disciples who it was for- it had no effect on whether or not it existed.


#7

According to St. Pius X, the necessary words are “This is my Body” and “This is my Blood” and that’s it.


#8

Sadly, what happens to a lot of folks is they fall into what is known as “intellectual desolation.” I actually read about it first in an SSPX article arguing against sedevantism, which was kind of ironic, because many SSPX members and followers fall into at least moderate intellectual desolation as well. There have been saints who suffered from it early in their lives and have overcome it–such as St. Francis de Sales (the issue for him was church teaching on predestination).

Basically, it involves an obsession over some issue that they feel must be resolved immediately, but it is in an area that they as an individual are neither qualified nor authorized to judge or settle. So it becomes an intellectual obsession that has the possibility of destroying one’s soul from the inside. Very well-meaning and faithful people can easily fall into this snare of the devil. But it is something that has to be overcome through prayer, humility, penance, and a focus on what truly is important in one’s daily walk of faith–such as loving one’s neghbor, bearing fruit with one’s faith, etc.


#9

That’s very interesting. I’ve done the same, and things got better and better. I began reading more for my own edification and enjoyment than to prove any kind of point. I was leaning heavily twords the SSPX position at that point, but I was very surprised to see things taught in the past that some people say weren’t, and things being taught today, that some people claim have been abandoned or changed. You have to read primary sources, not the splicing and interpreting of things by people with agendas. Study the ecumenical councils in their entirety (they can even be found online), as well as the historical backgrounds of each. Do the same with papal documents. Read as many as you can in their entirety (there’s countless online too for convenience)–not just a paragraph here or there. Study also the historical backgrounds of each so you can see what is specifically being talked about. Likewise, read the Holy Doctors of the Church–they help a lot as many magisterial texts are heavily influenced by their teaching. Of course, read the Scriptures and Fathers as well :thumbsup:

These things can bog some people down spiritually and can give burnout, so be careful. But for me, it was something enjoyable and maybe it will be for you too. :slight_smile:


#10

I really have no patience for people who say that the Novus Ordo is not a valid Mass. They are being, in their own way, Cafeteria Catholics, deciding on their own what portions of the authority and teachings of the Church they will accept. Really, if a Mass is good enough for the pope it should be good enough for them too.


#11

#12

I didn’t say they’d get it right away. There’s still hope for you, T.:wink:


#13

Thanks for sharing your stories.:thumbsup: Sometimes it’s hard not to get what you want when you want it when you think it’s God’s wish. I fall into this quite often.


#14

Why do you want her to attend the NO Mass anyway?

Just as McDonald’s burger and fries are valid food items– it may not be that good for you long term.

If she disagrees with VII council – so what??—it’s a pastoral council that will someday join the junk heap of history as a failure. The 12th ecumenical council was called Second Council of Lyon and it mandates in Canon 68. that Jews and Muslims shall wear a special dress to enable them to be distinguished from Christians . This is partly so that Christians will not unknowingly have sexual relations with Jews or Muslims. The latter are not to go outdoors during four days of Easter week.

This is nothing that a catholic today would say is right.

It is also arrogant of you to believe that you are closer to God that she is…


#15

ARRGGGHH…

it was the Fourth Council of the Lateran that i was speaking of…


#16

I agree. I really don’t understand those who are so deadset against VII. Are they really silly enough to not know it was the people’s taking what VII said too far and not VII itself that has caused such problems? Unfortunately the Novus Ordo is not celebrated correctly in many parishes, but when it is it is just as wonderful as the TLM.(ex: EWTN Daily Mass)

Though, if someone doesn’t want to go to a Novus Ordo, there’s no point in trying to get them too. If there was a TLM mass closer to me I’d go there much more often. If she wants to only go to TLM then she’s free to do so, I see no issue with it.


#17

Boycotting weekday masses because they are NO is a bit childish, but it is a legitimate way of expressing her views.

Why not see if you can get the office going? By this I mean the daily prayers which those in religious life say, such as evening prayer or Compline. You don’t need permission to say them in Latin, and it would get your friend into church.


#18

You have to read primary sources, not the splicing and interpreting of things by people with agendas.

But remember that your interpretation of primary sources may be in error. I prefer to read the writings of approved theologians who are the experts in these areas.

Basically, it involves an obsession over some issue that they feel must be resolved immediately, but it is in an area that they as an individual are neither qualified nor authorized to judge or settle. So it becomes an intellectual obsession that has the possibility of destroying one’s soul from the inside. Very well-meaning and faithful people can easily fall into this snare of the devil. But it is something that has to be overcome through prayer, humility, penance, and a focus on what truly is important in one’s daily walk of faith–such as loving one’s neghbor, bearing fruit with one’s faith, etc.

This is always interesting. Sedevacantists are often accused of this “intellectual obsession”…and the implicit “lack of humility”, “prayer”, and “focus on what is truly important in one’s daily walk of faith”…whatever that might mean.

I engage in these conversations or mini-debates to actually debate these issues. This I do in addition to the things required for my sanctification…which are infinitely more important.


#19

Brilliant! Any other leads on this? Cites, quotes, anything? Have you researched it?


#20

I think the problem he addressed goes deeper. If you noticed, it is not just that she won’t go to daily Mass, but that she believes the NO is invlaid. That is a serious issue and is more than a matter of preference.


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