"Trail of Blood" Baptist


#54

I like your reply. In regards to the Liturgy, you have given me a new perspective to consider. I do see what you are saying and if all present see themselves as individual soil then there is merit to the practice. I really wonder though, and I have seen it substantiated here at CAF, if a lot of people don’t just attend to meet their Mass obligations and participate in the ritualistic format of asking for God’s forgiveness in a blanket sort of way that covers the Venial sins of all present without really considering if they need to become different soil.


#55

Just a caution here…Protestants, especially in North America, seem fixated on terms like “obligations” and ritual as if those are bad; the opposite of holy. Supposedly “spontaneous” is more spiritual, as opposed to man made formats.
I am just asking you to consider this as, perhaps, a Protestant, especially American bias; a limitation.

Jesus warned against empty rituals, but he honored and appreciated some, at least (like the Seder ritual).

As a married man, I might be tempted to be more “spontaneous” in my love life, romancing with other ladies as opportunity arises. But sometimes my “obligations” caution me to stay on the straight and narrow. The best reason to avoid drinking and driving is because it is wrong. But a health fear of the policeman, while it is only second best reason, sometimes helps keep people safe when they are tempted to drift. So too with the “Mass obligation”.


#56

You raise good points.


#57

Grape juice isn’t wine.


#58

Mostly Baptists confuse me altogether. I’ve had them assure me I will be burning in hell for Mary worship, and yet this morning, while in the city visiting my kids, I drove past the “St. Mary’s Missionary Baptist” Church.


#60

Ever hear the phrase to be deep in history is to cease being a Protestant?

All one has to do is look for the Church by name in writing properly referenced that is here for 2000 years. That Church is the Catholic Church

This will take 3 posts due to space limits per post

The 1st 4 centuries (condensed)
The Church has been Catholic from the 1st century. The English word Catholic is a transliteration of the Greek katholikos which is a compound word from kata, which means according to, and holos, which means the whole or taken together, = throughout all, or universal. http://www.catholic.com/tracts/what-catholic-means & http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/830.htm

One can ask, where does kata holos ekklesia appear in scripture?

From the Greek NT
Acts 9:31 “the church throughout all ἐκκλησία,καθ’,ὅλης ,τῆς ,Judea and Galilee and Sama’ria…" = the Kataholos Church.

Acts 9:31 the church throughout all ἐκκλησία καθ’ ὅλης τῆς
ἐκκλησία = church http://bibleapps.com/greek/1577.htm ,
καθ’ = according to http://bibleapps.com/greek/2596.htm ,
ὅλης = whole http://bibleapps.com/greek/3650.htm ,
τῆς = the http://bibleapps.com/greek/3588.htm , Judea and Galilee and Sama’ria…"
= the Kataholos Church = the Catholic Church.

Catholic Church is used by

Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch from ~69 a.d. to ~107 a.d. ordained by the apostles, a direct disciple of St John. It was in Antioch where the disciples were first called Christian Acts 11:26 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+11%3A26&version=RSVCE Ignatius in his writings uses both “Christian” and “Catholic Church”

St Ignatius, uses Christian in (ch 2) and Catholic Church in (ch 8)
Epistle to the Smyrnæans http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm of which schismatics won’t be going to heaven _Epistle to the Philadelphians (ch 3)_ . http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0108.htm . Where would Ignatius learn to teach that warning and consequence for one’s soul, for committing and remaining in the sin of schism / division /schism from the Catholic Church?

From St Paul

Romans 16:17-20 http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/s?q=rom+16%3A17-20&b=drb

Galatians 5:19-21 http://drbo.org/cgi-bin/s?q=gal+5%3A19-21&b=drb
both quotes use the same Greek word [διχοστασίαι,] for dissension / division /schism [http://bibleapps.com/greek/1370.htm] And the consequence for that sin if one won’t return to the Catholic Church? Paul says “I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God”. IOW they go to hell when they die

to be continued


How does the Roman Catholic Church View Baptized Protestants? Heretics? or Separated Brethren?
Q. What Is the Greatest of All Protestant “Heresies”? A. Assurance
How does the Roman Catholic Church View Baptized Protestants? Heretics? or Separated Brethren?
Transitioning to Catholic
Is the Church's Authority to interpret scripture biblical?
Why is Protestantism wrong?
Debating with protestants who just won't listen
The Afterlife For Non-Christians
#61

Continued

The only Church Jesus established on Peter and those in union with him? The Catholic Church
That condemnation for division came from Jesus who does NOT approve of division from His Church John 17:20-23 http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/s?q=jn+17%3A20-23&b=drb , and since the HS only teaches what comes from Jesus John 16:12-15 http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=50&ch=16&l=12-15#x no one then can say the HS inspired THEM to divide, or inspired all the dissensions / divisions / schisms we see today in Christianity.

There is no expiration date to that warning and condemnation against division, and those who do it and keep it going. Once one knows the truth of their condition, their own division from the Catholic Church, and it’s condemnation, (seen in scripture and Tradition) and they don’t end their division, then they can’t be saved. That is from scripture and tradition.
846 http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/846.htm .

Catholic Church is used by

St Polycarp, ~140 a.d. Bp Smyrna, disciple of St John called the Church the "Catholic Church"
The Martyrdom of Polycarp http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0102.htm

Muratorian canon~170 a.d. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/muratorian.html uses authority of “Catholic Church” in determining the canon

Irenaeus ~180 a.d. from Smyrna, became bishop of Lyon, wrote “Against Heresies” he called the Church the “Catholic Church” Adversus haereses [Bk 1 Chapter 10 v 3] http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103110.htm . Irenaeus was taught by Polycarp, and teaches all must agree with Rome [Bk 3, Chapter 3, v 2-3] http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103303.htm on account of its preeminent authority

Cyprian~250 a.d. calls the Church the Catholic Church Epistle 54 http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/050654.htm

The Nicene Creed, 325 a.d., teaches it’s an article of faith to believe in the “One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church”

Augustine ~395 Saint and Doctor of the Church. There are many other things that most justly keep me in her [i.e. the Catholic Church’s] bosom. . . . The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection, gave it in charge to feed His sheep, down to the present episcopate. And so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house.Against the Epistle of Manichaeus Called Fundamental (ch 5 v6) http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1405.htm

to be continued


How does the Roman Catholic Church View Baptized Protestants? Heretics? or Separated Brethren?
How does the Roman Catholic Church View Baptized Protestants? Heretics? or Separated Brethren?
Q. What Is the Greatest of All Protestant “Heresies”? A. Assurance
Transitioning to Catholic
Debating with protestants who just won't listen
Why is Protestantism wrong?
The Afterlife For Non-Christians
Is the Church's Authority to interpret scripture biblical?
#62

Conclusion :grinning:

etc

The same Church today, Pope Francis is over, 266th successor to St Peter.

Jesus started one Church. The Catholic Church. He gave all His promises to His Church. No one then can argue the HS inspired them to start their own church, and divide from the Catholic Church because that would contradict Jesus prayer. John 17:20-23 http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=50&ch=17&l=20-23#x


Debating with protestants who just won't listen
The Afterlife For Non-Christians
Why is Protestantism wrong?
Is the Church's Authority to interpret scripture biblical?
How does the Roman Catholic Church View Baptized Protestants? Heretics? or Separated Brethren?
How does the Roman Catholic Church View Baptized Protestants? Heretics? or Separated Brethren?
Q. What Is the Greatest of All Protestant “Heresies”? A. Assurance
Transitioning to Catholic
#63

Thank God their nonsense remains nonsense.
Thank God He has protected us from such “false” gospels as the protestants teach.


#64

Calling people “dumb” because they have different ideas isn’t any way to make friends. A lot of religious beliefs may seem “stupid” to the uninitiated. But pointing and laughing at this belief is just as bad a form as poking fun at a devout Hindu’s statue of the elephant god or a Sikh’s turban. Doesn’t make any friends or converts.


#65

That seems kind of weak…is the Host a loaf of bread?


#66

My late Baptist friend not only believed in something like the Trail of Blood, she also believed the Earth was created in 7 24 hours days, with all species, no evolution. She also regarded abortion as murder, and marriage as involving one man and one woman.

Some of my Catholic and Protestant friends have what appears to be more accurate beliefs on church history, and biology. But they also accept legal abortion and same sex marriage.

There is no doubt my Baptist friend had far greater wisdom overall than my other friends. She was definitely closer to the core of Catholicism than those other friends.


#67

Thanks for sharing this. I find it intriguing. Any chance of getting you to share what the core of Catholicism comprises?


#68

To stretch the analogy, this is an apples-and-oranges comparison. Bread is bread, but grape juice is not wine. Think about this chronologically: the harvest and pressing of grapes was in the fall, but the Passover meal (which we celebrate as the Eucharist) was in the spring. Given that this was almost two millenia before Dr. Welch’s invention of the grape juice pasteurization process, there is no way that what was poured into the cups at the Passover meal was grape juice.

D


#69

And I agree with you totally. I have no arguement with that. What get’s me is when I read that using grape juice is blasphemous or very, very bad. I just wonder at the rationale for those comments.

I became friends with an alcoholic who got dry through AA. He vowed to never take a drop again. He shared with me that his Lutheran Church made no provision for an alternative for him so he could not commune.

How does the CC handle it?


#70

Bread is bread, I agree. If I go to Dennys and order toast I certainly would be shocked to be served a wafer.


#71

EEK! Talk about tough assignments! All I can do is suggest a few points, grossly incomplete.

  • Commitment to know, love and serve God; Prayer.
  • Commitment to love neighbor;
  • Learning and relying on what is True and Right: Scripture, Tradition, the Magisterium are guides here.
  • Active avoidance of sin: awareness of the World, the Flesh, and the Devil. All 3 are dangers, but in our time the World being the greatest IMHO.
  • Reliance on the sacraments as partly natural, partly supernatural channels of God’s grace towards ongoing conversion. The Mass.
  • “Mercy” in both senses: God’s forgiveness and our forgiveness of others; and: proactive caring for persons, as children of God.
  • Other things, fit into the existing outline (Mary, think Incarnation), intercession (think God’s providential care, communion of saints); and so on.
    Again, I went way beyond the topic of the thread, and threw some things on “paper” in a hurry. In an hour more I would have thought of other stuff. So now, back to the topic, “Blood”.

#72

No way I would go so far as to use terminology like “blasphemous”. It falls into the arena of what is or is not proper “matter”. I know the rules, but I can’t keep the terminology straight. I know that our parish is doing it right, and that’s as far as my concern goes.

As for your last question, the Catholic Church believes that the whole Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ is contained in either species. For centuries the laity were given only the Host, and not the Cup. It has been only in the past few decades that the Faithful have been allowed Holy Communion in both species, but there is no requirement that they receive both. In our parish, many receive only the Host, and pass by the Cup.

D


#73

The wafer is bread – unleavened bread, as required for Holy Communion in the Roman rite.

D


#74

The Baptists that you are referring to would make some argument that the wine that the Apostles drank and that Jesus drank and Paul encourages Timothy to drink was not as potent as the wine on our shelves… or something like that.

Anyway, not all Baptists are teetotalers. I am a member of a Southern Baptist Church in Virginia. I love craft beer and good bourbon. Our pastor keeps good beer on tap in the bar in his basement… So although most Baptists are teetotalers, it is not official “doctrine” it is “tradition” that stems from the temperance movement in the USA.

John the Baptist was already martyred at that point in history :wink:
Can you smell me? :slight_smile:


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