Transfiguration


#1

I read from a Catholic site, New Theological Movement, that Jesus and Mary are the only two glorified bodies in Heaven. What about Elijah and Moses? (Or was it Elijah and Enoch at the Transfiguration?)


#2

It was Moses.

And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain apart. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his garments became white as light. And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Eli’jah, talking with him. (Matthew 17:1-3)

I don’t know the answer to the question about glorified bodies. It is interesting. Elijiah was taken up to heaven in a whirlwind. Moses died and was buried.

So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD, and he buried him in the valley in the land of Moab opposite Beth-pe’or; but no man knows the place of his burial to this day. (Deuteronomy 34:5-6)

And as they still went on and talked, behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Eli’jah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (2 Kings 2:11)

-Tim-


#3

[quote="TimothyH, post:2, topic:336494"]
It was Moses.

And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain apart. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his garments became white as light. And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Eli'jah, talking with him. (Matthew 17:1-3)

I don't know the answer to the question about glorified bodies. It is interesting. Elijiah was taken up to heaven in a whirlwind. Moses died and was buried.

So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD, and he buried him in the valley in the land of Moab opposite Beth-pe'or; but no man knows the place of his burial to this day. (Deuteronomy 34:5-6)

And as they still went on and talked, behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Eli'jah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (2 Kings 2:11)

-Tim-

[/quote]

One of my priests once referred me to another priest from another parish whomever my priest describes as "brilliant", I asked him this question in email, but while I wait for his reply, I'm curious about other posters opinions.


#4

Yes, Jesus & Mary have glorified bodies. Accordingly, they can move like Angels at the speed of thought not to mention they can be with all of us intimately simultaneously.

Anyway, Enoch & Elisha both went to Heaven or God took them bodily without dying and many think they are scheduled to return with a worldwide witness of the kingdom and to fight against the forces of antichrist & die, lay in Jerusalem for 3 days and rise up in front of the whole world. That will be their final witness.

*Mathew 24: 14 * And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
After that they will receive glorified bodies.

Moses could have a glorified body. Its hard to tell.

Peace
Ed


#5

[quote="Ed_Silvia, post:4, topic:336494"]
Yes, Jesus & Mary have glorified bodies. Accordingly, they can move like Angels at the speed of thought not to mention they can be with all of us intimately simultaneously.

Anyway, Enoch & Elisha both went to Heaven or God took them bodily without dying and many think they are scheduled to return with a worldwide witness of the kingdom and to fight against the forces of antichrist & die, lay in Jerusalem for 3 days and rise up in front of the whole world. That will be their final witness.

*Mathew 24: 14 * And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
After that they will receive glorified bodies.

Moses could have a glorified body. Its hard to tell.

Peace
Ed

[/quote]

That is very interesting. Insightful thanks for the post


#6

I have heard the interpretation that when it is said that the OT figures were taken up into heaven that it only meant that they were taken up into the sky, but not taken to heaven (likely said because heaven was not opened yet by Christ). If this is so, then they were taken body and soul to the Bosom of Abraham to await Christ.

I've heard variations going either way.


#7

[quote="Faith1960, post:3, topic:336494"]
One of my priests once referred me to another priest from another parish whomever my priest describes as "brilliant", I asked him this question in email, but while I wait for his reply, I'm curious about other posters opinions.

[/quote]

Spirits can be seen as if in bodily form. This is a phenomenon that is seen repeatedly in the Bible. Gabriel, an angel, was seen by Mary at the annunciation. Raphael, another angel, visited Tobit. Satan, a fallen angel, appeared as a serpent in the Garden of Eden. God appeared as a man to Abraham. So, it never occurred to me that either Elijah or Moses was seen bodily at the transfiguration, as the manifestation of spirits in bodily form is not an unusual occurrence in the Bible. I believe it is a practical concession that God allows spirits interacting with humans to take on the semblance of a human being.


#8

[quote="Faith1960, post:1, topic:336494"]
I read from a Catholic site, New Theological Movement, that Jesus and Mary are the only two glorified bodies in Heaven. What about Elijah and Moses? (Or was it Elijah and Enoch at the Transfiguration?)

[/quote]

I think we can safely say that Jesus was the first to be glorified, and that Mary was the second. There is no reason to assume that any other humans have been glorified. I think that Moses and Elijha were in Purgatory or " a place of waiting. " When Elijha was taken up to heaven, that was most likely metaphorical language for an unknown place of waiting.
There is no reason to interpret " heaven " literally. It would be unbecoming if any human being except Christ had been glorified before His own Mother.

Linus2nd


#9

I've been doing some reading on the Internet and learned that some translations say that their appearance at the Transfiguration were visions, not a literal sighting of their bodies.

Also, some translations say that one of them was "translated," which can be interpreted to mean "relocated" to another place, that he was taken up to the first Heaven in a whirlwind, which had to mean the Earth's sky, then relocated elsewhere. What I read gave a number of various Scriptures that said Elijah, Enoch and Moses did physically die.t


#10

As I recall, the Roman Catechism suggested people like Enoch and Elijah who were brought to heaven alive will still need to die at some point, if only momentarily just before the general resurrection. In this case their bodies, not yet being resurrected, would perhaps for this reason not yet be glorified.

In the case of Moses though he clearly did die and was miraculously buried beneath the Jordan. If the apocryphal story that he was resurrected and assumed into heaven from beneath the Jordan is true (and it would complete the baptismal symbolism of the Jordan burial quite nicely) then I don't see why he wouldn't also have a glorified body.


#11

[quote="Aelred_Minor, post:10, topic:336494"]
As I recall, the Roman Catechism suggested people like Enoch and Elijah who were brought to heaven alive will still need to die at some point, if only momentarily just before the general resurrection. In this case their bodies, not yet being resurrected, would perhaps for this reason not yet be glorified.

In the case of Moses though he clearly did die and was miraculously buried beneath the Jordan. If the apocryphal story that he was resurrected and assumed into heaven from beneath the Jordan is true (and it would complete the baptismal symbolism of the Jordan burial quite nicely) then I don't see why he wouldn't also have a glorified body.

[/quote]

That directly contradicts Jesus' own words and other words in Scripture which says that Jesus was the first man in Heaven.


#12

It also said that they died and were buried in a location not known. Could this be correct?
And is this compatible with Catholic teaching?


#13

Here's a link to one of the articles I found, though it's not a Catholic source. ecclesia.org/truth/enoch.html


#14

[quote="Aelred_Minor, post:10, topic:336494"]
As I recall, the Roman Catechism suggested people like Enoch and Elijah who were brought to heaven alive will still need to die at some point, if only momentarily just before the general resurrection. In this case their bodies, not yet being resurrected, would perhaps for this reason not yet be glorified.

In the case of Moses though he clearly did die and was miraculously buried beneath the Jordan. If the apocryphal story that he was resurrected and assumed into heaven from beneath the Jordan is true (and it would complete the baptismal symbolism of the Jordan burial quite nicely) then I don't see why he wouldn't also have a glorified body.

[/quote]

I think you should revisit the Catechism as you will be hard pressed to find any of the ideas you mention.


#15

[quote="AmbroseSJ, post:14, topic:336494"]
I think you should revisit the Catechism as you will be hard pressed to find any of the ideas you mention.

[/quote]

I looked for information about this is my Catechism last night and found little. Where do I look?

Oh, sorry, I thought that reply was to me.


#16

[quote="Aelred_Minor, post:10, topic:336494"]
As I recall, the Roman Catechism suggested people like Enoch and Elijah who were brought to heaven alive will still need to die at some point, if only momentarily just before the general resurrection. In this case their bodies, not yet being resurrected, would perhaps for this reason not yet be glorified.

In the case of Moses though he clearly did die and was miraculously buried beneath the Jordan. If the apocryphal story that he was resurrected and assumed into heaven from beneath the Jordan is true (and it would complete the baptismal symbolism of the Jordan burial quite nicely) then I don't see why he wouldn't also have a glorified body.

[/quote]

[quote="AmbroseSJ, post:14, topic:336494"]
I think you should revisit the Catechism as you will be hard pressed to find any of the ideas you mention.

[/quote]

Are you sure about that, Ambrose?


#17

Just because Enoch and Elijah may not have tasted death, does not mean they were transported immediately to heaven.


#18

Neither does it mean that they will not experience death sometime in the future.


#19

[quote="Faith1960, post:16, topic:336494"]
Are you sure about that, Ambrose?

[/quote]

Aelred Minor made the statement, let that person prove it!


#20

[quote="AmbroseSJ, post:19, topic:336494"]
Aelred Minor made the statement, let that person prove it!

[/quote]

I meant that I didn't think s/he was right, either, and was asking if you were sure that it's wrong.


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