Transgender In Love


#1

(This is a question that’s been eating me alive to the point that I’ve just crawled out of bed at 2 AM to register on my favorite forum in the world and ask it. Do forgive if I am less than eloquent!)

I am a faithful Catholic and have been for my entire life. I have never strayed from its teachings and I vigorously defend its doctrines, even–and especially–those concerning the Church’s stance on homosexuality. If I were to classify myself, I would say that I am very traditional. However, I also suffer from Gender Identity Disorder. (To clarify, I have not begun hormones or undergone surgery, but I do crossdress, which, as I have gathered from scouring other threads, is not a sin, and thank goodness, because it is a small and much needed respite from my turmoil.)

Of course, knowing that I will never truly be the sex I wasn’t born as, I contentedly resigned myself to a chaste and single life since a very young age, incapable of either marriage or of comfortably joining a holy order. I have never fornicated and I am stubborn enough to think that I never will–I hope I never will, anyway, by grace.

However, I have since found someone that I have fallen irrevocably in love with. They are the same sex as my birth sex. They know that I have GID, and, while straight, they love me anyway. I love them, too, and our attraction is mutual, chaste and not lustful in the slightest. Of course, knowing how things go, we have discussed the issue of the marital act, and on account of my religion (they are not Catholic) and my condition we have come to the understanding that it can never happen between us. Naturally, I am acutely aware that a marriage will never be recognized by the Church.

Despite these discouragements, we want to stay together as a chaste couple. I think that we have the willpower and the strength to do it, and by God’s grace I am sure that we can. It is a rare and powerful love that I do not think is possible for many people, to the point that we would both give up the sacred act. It is a great sacrifice on their part, especially, made more potent on account of the fact that they are the sort of person that could have anyone they desired, really–certainly someone who was not like me, someone who was whole enough to be a proper other half.

I suppose that this must seem a bit convoluted, but my primary question is this: would we be committing a sin anyway for staying together in this way, or does sin only come into play when sexual intimacy does?


#2

The Church would most likely say that you would be putting yourself in the Near Occasion of Sin and that you would be expected to avoid it. While you may be strong in your will now, there is no predicting the future and there could come a time where other influences in your life weaken your will sufficiently that you give in to physical temptations.

There is also the potential impact this has on your friend's life... s/he would be unable to have children with you. Normal sexual expression would be impossible as you have stated s/he is heterosexual, but if s/he knows that you are biologically the same gender, presumably with appropriate 'plumbing', then s/he would be forced to live out life in a sexless relationship. Is that really fair on her/him?

I am uncomfortable with the idea of encouraging a commitment from a heterosexual person who sees you as the opposite sex when you aren't. It calls into question their sexual self-identity - it sounds to me like it isn't 'well formed' and this, over time, may end up causing more problems. This person may well have their own internal traumas and the two of you getting together, in any form, may well lead to greater heartbreak than it avoids.

I don't know enough about your personal condition to be able to say anything more about your GID or its causes, so I don't wish to come to any conclusions about that, but I'm pretty confident in the Church's position, as I stated above.

I wish nothing more than peace for both of you, but I don't see it as being expressed in a relationship of the type that you propose: I see only frustration, temptation and either eventual heartbreak or activities that go against what you believe (which will cause yet more upset).


#3

I feel for you.

I think it is good that you have told this person about the GID.

I don’t know how to advise you, but I will pray for you both.


#4

ISTM that pursuit of this relationship would give scandal to others, because it would look from outside like a "gay" relationship.

It would also IMNAAHO be unfair to your SO, because it would take the place of a potentially more fulfilled relationship with someone in the complementary gender.

There is no "irreversibly in love," as married couples find out every year in this society. Better that the 2 of you should move on than to cling to something your bodies' ah, geometry, cannot permit.

God Bless you OP. This issue is part of your penance, and it is a heavy one.

Shalom and ICXC NIKA


#5

[quote="VeryWell, post:1, topic:316670"]
... our attraction is mutual, chaste and not lustful in the slightest...

[/quote]

Others have raised the possibility of this relationship: a) being a near occasion of sin, and b) being a scandal to others. However, if you...

a) can honestly *say that neither of you are prone to sexual temptation when with one another (and contrary to what many may believe, an absence of sexual desire *is normal for some couples).

b) avoid describing yourself as a couple, whilst refraining from permissible demonstrations of affection (hand-holding, hugging, etc) whilst in public, I really cannot see that your relationship could be a problem.

Personally, I find the idea of a devoted, chaste relationship of this nature to be rather inspiring, but I do recommend that you discuss the matter with your priest and see what his thoughts are. You are in my prayers.


#6

Talk to your priest and contact the Courage organization. www.couragerc.net


#7

Good answers, and wise, honest and practical ones, at that–precisely what I came here for. Thank you.

Since Jennet addressed the prime points above and presented some of their own to which I can provide clarification, let me do so:

This is definitely a given, else I would not have emphasized the non-sexual nature of our relationship as much as I did. If there was a possibility of sexual temptation ever becoming a matter of concern, I would have declined the relationship from the very beginning, because, as previous posters have mentioned, that really is just a set up for disaster no matter how confident anyone is. We’re human and humans make mistakes. I would like to add that much of my life has been spent loveless in part because the people that have come to me before were not sexually disinclined, and I was perfectly fine with rejecting them on the grounds of this very sensible foresight.

This is a really small sacrifice to make–and we already treat it as a secret and subtle thing, in fact. Nobody has to know but us.

Thank you for your prayers, your support, and your advice. It is all very much appreciated, probably more than you could possibly imagine.

Here are a couple of other things that I would like to clear up, too!

No, it is absolutely not. It’s terribly unfair. No one should be forced into something like that, ever, for obvious reasons–everyone has a right to sexual expression within the correct circumstances, else we wouldn’t all come equipped with the capacity (more or less).

However, there is a very important detail here that I feel is being overlooked: they are not being forced at all. I have brought this matter up with them and I have specifically stated, with much bluntness, the fact that they would never be able to have sex if they wanted to remain committed to me. Despite this, it is of their own accord, out of the goodness of their own heart, that they have decided that it doesn’t matter to them, that it is something they are willing to give up, because sex is not all that a relationship is about and it certainly isn’t what ours is focused on.

Before anyone brings it up, yes, this heroic (and it is heroic) abstaining could possibly open the possibility of sexual temptations outside of that relationship, but I like to think that, as sensible adults, we would be able to discuss and recognize such a problem. If it became enough of an issue, I would certainly be able to part ways in order to permit something that, as you have stated, they do have a right to, and that I do not have a right to impede. I certainly love them enough to give them up if I know that it will make them happier and be better for them in the long run; that is part of why I made this thread in the first place, because I don’t want what we are doing to end up being something terrible for either of us in the end.

I am well aware that it will never be much more than a flimsy facade of one aspect of a whole union in the eyes of God, but there is true and powerful love in it, too, and that is what leaves me so conflicted. It is the kind that is not superficial or skin-deep, that does not decay with age, and that isn’t afraid to make formidable sacrifices.

Anyway, back around to the main point: yes, it is absolutely something they don’t have to give up, there is no doubt whatsoever about that. But, is it also something they shouldn’t give up? It* is* a huge sacrifice that they are not required to make and believe me when I say that it troubles me to potentially be taking something so important away, but I also want to trust their decisions.

I would like to further note that my affliction with GID was something of which they were aware before any of this happened. They haven’t been hoodwinked into something they might not have been sure about otherwise, and they certainly aren’t meekly following through with something that bothers them simply because the matter already possesses momentum. (All of this does validate concerns about sexual self-identity, but I feel that those are irrelevant to some degree if there is no intercourse. I am open to discussion, of course.)

I cannot thank all of you enough for your replies, and please, keep them coming. I want to be able to make a solid conclusion here, in whatever direction.


#8

I don't have any advice really, but having this disorder and refusing to "just go with what society tells you", is extremely commendable. So many with same sex attraction, and many with heterosexual attraction now, sacrifice religion in pursuit of "who they are". Glory to God for your Faith and chastity. I humbly ask you to pray for me to master that Vitue.


#9

There, but for the grace of God, go I!

To be truthful, I don’t know if I would be as chaste if it weren’t for the GID, actually. For that I am able to be thankful for it, even if it is difficult and unfortunate in many ways.

Thank you for your kind words. I will definitely keep you in my prayers, and I hope that you might be able to keep me (us!) in yours, too.


#10

I offer my prayers for you and for your friend.

The topic of transgender or GID is not something that I have knowledge, so I can only offer prayers that God leads you and your friend to His will. God loves you beyond measure.

Above all, always pray to do God’s will.

I see Courage has a link on this area. Maybe this will be of some help for you.
couragerc.net/Transexuality.html

Gender Identity (Sexual) Disorder, Cross-dressing and Transsexual Conflicts
couragerc.net/Transsexual_Issues.html

Peace.


#11

It’s one thing to bear this cross, that is painful enough.

But if this organization tries to tell him/her that he/she can “change,” oh Lord have mercy. Life is painful enough.

Edit: it looks like they do not consider themselves an “ex-gay” organization, but then their testimonials sound like it. So make up your own mind, I suppose.

Quoting from Courage:

At the very least, health professionals who deal with these individuals and their families should evaluate the part of strong anger with oneself and others, self-pity, childhood trauma, addiction to masturbation and fantasy, envy play and parental emotional conflicts in the development of these conflicts. These persons also should be evaluated for both borderline or narcissistic personality disorders.

Dear Courage, could you possibly be any less sympathetic? Could you do a better job of making these people feel like crud?

Probably not. :shrug:


#12

Courage isn't an organization that says those with homosexual orientation must try to "change". Rather, it's a support group to help those with same sex attraction lead chaste lives. It's a Catholic, not fundamentalist, organization. I'm sure it's many members would disagree with your assertion that they aren't "sympathetic". Should they just say "you can't have sex with the people you are attracted to, but there's probably NOTHING else wrong with you, so don't bother being evaluated for anything else. SSA is just a fluke of your birth. Just be chaste!

In Christ,
Ellen


#13

At the very least, health professionals who deal with these individuals and their families should evaluate the part of strong anger with oneself and others, self-pity, childhood trauma, addiction to masturbation and fantasy, envy play and parental emotional conflicts in the development of these conflicts. These persons also should be evaluated for both borderline or narcissistic personality disorders.

I did not see that bit. While harsh, I think there is actually a lot of truth to it when it comes to a number of cases. However, I'll admit that I didn't look very far into Courage, because its entire goal seems to revolve around fixing these matters through chastity, which, as has been reiterated several times, is something that I already practice and have done so to the best of my ability for as long as I've lived. I would like to note that, while it has done me much good in regards to avoiding the condemning homosexual act, it has done nothing to actually ease my disorder. While they are no doubt very similar, GID is not quite the same as SSA, because it deals with self as well as other people, and coping with it is not as simple as not having sex.

In any event, Courage's efforts are commendable but not really relevant to the chaste romance that I am trying to discuss here.

I do appreciate the time and the effort and every single post here so far, but I would also appreciate some more specific advice or input!


#14

[quote="VeryWell, post:1, topic:316670"]

It is a rare and powerful love that I do not think is possible for many people, to the point that we would both give up the sacred act. It is a great sacrifice on their part, especially, made more potent on account of the fact that they are the sort of person that could have anyone they desired, really--certainly someone who was not like me, someone who was whole enough to be a proper other half.

[/quote]

there is no sacrifice ,not committing a sin is not noble.


#15

You misunderstand me entirely. It is a sacrifice to choose to give up the prospect of sex when the possibility exists of pursuing a full marital relationship with another person with whom one IS physically compatible, and with whom it thereby wouldn’t be a sin. There is absolutely no sacrifice on my part, of course, as I am sexually disinterested and destined for a life of chastity anyway.

If I am not being coherent enough, do say so and I will clarify, if it pleases you. I feel like I am not getting myself across.


#16

a full marital relationship is between a man and a woman,and the human body is not a lego set with interchangeable parts.there no possibility of pursuing a full marital relationship with someone of the same sex ,and it doesn’t matter what has been added,grafted,cut off,or subtracted.:shrug:


#17

split to address different points

quote="VeryWell, post:1, topic:316670"

I am a faithful Catholic and have been for my entire life. I have never strayed from its teachings and I vigorously defend its doctrines, even--and especially--those concerning the Church's stance on homosexuality. If I were to classify myself, I would say that I am very traditional. However, I also suffer from Gender Identity Disorder. (To clarify, I have not begun hormones or undergone surgery, but I do crossdress, which, as I have gathered from scouring other threads, is not a sin, and thank goodness, because it is a small and much needed respite from my turmoil.)

Of course, knowing that I will never truly be the sex I wasn't born as, I contentedly resigned myself to a chaste and single life since a very young age, incapable of either marriage or of comfortably joining a holy order. I have never fornicated and I am stubborn enough to think that I never will--I hope I never will, anyway, by grace.

[/quote]

You seem to be dealing with it well.

[quote="VeryWell, post:1, topic:316670"]

However, I have since found someone that I have fallen irrevocably in love with. They are the same sex as my birth sex. They know that I have GID, and, while straight, they love me anyway. I love them, too, and our attraction is mutual, chaste and not lustful in the slightest. Of course, knowing how things go, we have discussed the issue of the marital act, and on account of my religion (they are not Catholic) and my condition we have come to the understanding that it can never happen between us. Naturally, I am acutely aware that a marriage will never be recognized by the Church.

Despite these discouragements, we want to stay together as a chaste couple. I think that we have the willpower and the strength to do it, and by God's grace I am sure that we can. It is a rare and powerful love that I do not think is possible for many people, to the point that we would both give up the sacred act. It is a great sacrifice on their part, especially, made more potent on account of the fact that they are the sort of person that could have anyone they desired, really--certainly someone who was not like me, someone who was whole enough to be a proper other half.

I suppose that this must seem a bit convoluted, but my primary question is this: would we be committing a sin anyway for staying together in this way, or does sin only come into play when sexual intimacy does?

[/quote]

Society currently manages to overhype sex and simultaneously undervalue it. People have a deep need for love, but not sex.

It is more weakness than them renouncing something almost indispensable. While it might seem they are forsaking something they may ultimately find they have something far more valuable in it's place, see David's lamentation at the passing of Jonathan or Newman's lamentation at the passing of Ambrose St. John, indeed I know of at least one case where the other died of a broken heart shortly after.

No, what you've described is not sinful, also if people try preaching that it's a near occasion of sin and near occasions of sin are sin then keep that there is a difference between proximate and remote occasions and that it seems to be the latter case for you.

[quote="VeritasLuxMea, post:11, topic:316670"]
It's one thing to bear this cross, that is painful enough.

But if this organization tries to tell him/her that he/she can "change," oh Lord have mercy. Life is painful enough.

Edit: it looks like they do not consider themselves an "ex-gay" organization, but then their testimonials sound like it. So make up your own mind, I suppose.

Quoting from Courage:

Dear Courage, could you possibly be any less sympathetic? Could you do a better job of making these people feel like crud?

Probably not. :shrug:

[/quote]

If you've read some of the posts that have been made here you'd realize the answer is not just "yes", but "massively", lets put it this way, it is enough make it look like Alan Turing got a happy ending

[quote="VeryWell, post:13, topic:316670"]
I did not see that bit. While harsh, I think there is actually a lot of truth to it when it comes to a number of cases. However, I'll admit that I didn't look very far into Courage, because its entire goal seems to revolve around fixing these matters through chastity, which, as has been reiterated several times, is something that I already practice and have done so to the best of my ability for as long as I've lived. I would like to note that, while it has done me much good in regards to avoiding the condemning homosexual act, it has done nothing to actually ease my disorder. While they are no doubt very similar, GID is not quite the same as SSA, because it deals with self as well as other people, and coping with it is not as simple as not having sex.

In any event, Courage's efforts are commendable but not really relevant to the chaste romance that I am trying to discuss here.

I do appreciate the time and the effort and every single post here so far, but I would also appreciate some more specific advice or input!

[/quote]

Yes, GID and homosexuality are different in essence although perhaps might have similar causes.


#18

quote="VeryWell, post:1, topic:316670"

However, I have since found someone that I have fallen irrevocably in love with. They are the same sex as my birth sex. They know that I have GID, and, while straight, they love me anyway. I love them, too, and our attraction is mutual, chaste and not lustful in the slightest. Of course, knowing how things go, we have discussed the issue of the marital act, and on account of my religion (they are not Catholic) and my condition we have come to the understanding that it can never happen between us. Naturally, I am acutely aware that a marriage will never be recognized by the Church.

Despite these discouragements, we want to stay together as a chaste couple. I think that we have the willpower and the strength to do it, and by God's grace I am sure that we can. It is a rare and powerful love that I do not think is possible for many people, to the point that we would both give up the sacred act. It is a great sacrifice on their part, especially, made more potent on account of the fact that they are the sort of person that could have anyone they desired, really--certainly someone who was not like me, someone who was whole enough to be a proper other half.

I suppose that this must seem a bit convoluted, but my primary question is this: would we be committing a sin anyway for staying together in this way, or does sin only come into play when sexual intimacy does?

[/quote]

VeryWell,

You may not like my thoughts however reality is always the best approach...

I am a faithful Catholic and have been for my entire life. I have never strayed from its teachings and I vigorously defend its doctrines, even--and especially--those concerning the Church's stance on homosexuality.

I ask you to focus on this thought as a reminder to all your thoughts.

If I were to classify myself, I would say that I am very traditional. However, I also suffer from Gender Identity Disorder. (To clarify, I have not begun hormones or undergone surgery, but I do crossdress, which, as I have gathered from scouring other threads, is not a sin, and thank goodness, because it is a small and much needed respite from my turmoil.)

What you are saying is that you have given credence to the Psychiatric Association and perhaps Psychologists as it regards your life. There is real danger in believing that this secular organization has much knowledge and real helpful information as I shall point out.

So if you believe you have GID, you have visited secular behavior medical persons that provided you support for your beliefs and that belief of GID is as follows...

Gender Identity Disorder (GID), a condition in which a person feels a strong and persistent identification with the opposite gender accompanied with a severe sense of discomfort in their own gender. People with GID often report a feeling of being born the wrong sex.

  1. The individual has been diagnosed with the Gender Identity Disorder (GID) of transsexualism, including all of the following:
    a. The **desire **to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by the **wish **to make his or her body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatment; and

  2. The individual has been diagnosed with the Gender Identity Disorder (GID) of transsexualism, including all of the following:
    a. The desire **to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by the **wish **to make his or her body as congruent as possible with the preferred **sex through surgery and hormone treatment; and
    b. The transsexual identity has been present persistently for at least two years; and
    c. The disorder is not a symptom of another mental disorder;

So with the understanding that a person that says that they have GID, this is based on Desire, Wish, Preference and this is a disorder. Your suggesting you have considered hormones is consistent with the understanding that the next step in the process is this hormone treatment with the potential intention to have some surgery. With or without surgery the entire premise is that a person with GID....has Wish,Desire and Preference and nothing more....Ok.

Of course, knowing that I will never truly be the sex I wasn't born as, I contentedly resigned myself to a chaste and single life since a very young age, incapable of either marriage or of comfortably joining a holy order. I have never fornicated and I am stubborn enough to think that I never will--I **hope **I never will, anyway, by grace.

I hope I never sin, I hope I never do lots of things....Your notion of believing that you are not the sex you were born in is based on Wish, Desire and Preference and unless you have some genetic anomaly you are what you are and Wishing, Desiring and Preference cannot change that....

I have more to say however it shall be continued...


#19

Very Well,

I question the strength and ability to be chase based on the following:

Here you say this…

I have never fornicated and I am stubborn enough to think that I never will–I hope I never will, anyway, by grace.

The mind is a funny thing. It tells what is there without us realizing what it is telling. When you previously generated the notion of hope…with grace…suggesting your stubborness as to your never fornicating…you then say this…

However, I have since found someone that I have fallen irrevocably in love with. They are the same sex as my birth sex. They know that I have GID, and, while straight, they love me anyway. I love them, too, and our attraction is mutual, chaste and not lustful in the slightest. Of course, knowing how things go, we have discussed the issue of the marital act, and on account of my religion (they are not Catholic) and my condition we have come to the understanding that it can never happen between us. Naturally, I am acutely aware that a marriage will never be recognized by the Church.

Whenever the word However, But, Although is used in continuum to complete a thought it negates all that was said before…

However I have found someone…

You say this person is straight. No they are not. If they are of the same sex then being attracted to the same sex does not equate to straight. I can never in my life imagine myself attracted to a pretty man. Men have ugly hands and feet. Men have funny necks. Men have funny foreheads and men have funny skin. I know I am a man. I don’t care how pretty another man is, he looks different, feels different, smells different, talks different and is so different than any unatractive woman I have ever been with that to be attracted to a person of the same sex does not eqaute to straight.

This person is not Catholic and recall you are a faithful Catholic. Imagine the difficulties that a man and a woman have when considering that one is Catholic and the other is non-Catholic how complicated that is and you impose Catholic GID with a not so straight non-Catholic…what do you think this non-Catholic thinks of your Faith, your tenacity as you say here…

I am a faithful Catholic and have been for my entire life. I have never strayed from its teachings and I vigorously defend its doctrines, even–and especially–those concerning the Church’s stance on homosexuality.

What do you think this not so straight person thinks of your fidelity of the doctrines of the Church when they see you crossdressing and considering a same sex relationship. Is this good advertisement?

Now as a Faithful Catholic that does not question the Faith and is loyal and understands Church teaching…look at what you are thinking…

Despite these discouragements, we want to stay together as a chaste couple. I think that we have the willpower and the strength to do it, and by God’s grace I am sure that we can. It is a rare and powerful love that I do not think is possible for many people, to the point that we would both give up the **sacred act. **

If two men, one with GID and the other attracted to that man, probably not straight, and you consider that in your relationship that you would not give up???“the sacred act”…your mind believes that this relationship is capable of a sacred act?

I suppose that this must seem a bit convoluted, but my primary question is this: would we be committing a sin anyway for staying together in this way, or does sin only come into play when sexual intimacy does?

Yes, it is convuluted. There are lots of opportunity to sin and intimacy may be one of them. Consider this.

I want to live with a young woman. I love a young woman. I know that as a staunch Catholic, she is an athiest, she respects me and I know that while living together that our love will guide us and we will be chaste no matter what. I am sure that I am being a good witness to my Catholic Faith by doing so.

Would I as a man be putting myself in a near occasion of sin?


#20

Have you ever considered that there are more types of love than the one that is normally accompanied by a desire to copulate?


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