Tree of Life


#1

Hi
Sometimes ago two JWs came to my house and told me that there had been no change in the Bible, it is impossible and opened before me following passage from the Urdu Protestant Bible (later I came to know that JWs don’t have their own Urdu Bible and hence they prefer to follow Protestant Version and not the Catholic Versions): Revelation 22:18-19
18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
Unquote
Incidentally I had a Catholic Urdu Bible with me which I was studying very intently, and I was much impressed by the contents. I brought that and put that on the table. I said let us check both the versions, so we started checking the list of books given in the beginning. We came to know that there were some six books in the Catholic Urdu Bible which were not to be found in the Protestant Bible.
They became pale and upset and went away.
So the addition or diminution of the books, and besides that many verses and chapters suggest, please don’t mind, that perhaps both the Protestants and Catholics have been cut off from the tree of life in terms of the above verse Revelation 22:18-19.
What is the remedy?
Can both the mainstream Christian denomination agree to a version which should be acceptable to both of them?
May GodAllahYHWH bless them!
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics


#2

The extra books are OT not NT. So, Rev 22:18-19 does not relate. If you consider Rev 22:18-19 along with Hebrews 1, then Muhammad is ruled out as being a prophet because the next main event is the return of Christ.


#3

What is Urdu Bible? I’ve never heard of it.

The JWs and Mormons have their own “translations” which differ significantly from the Bible that the Christian world knows. They performed these alterations in order to support their heteroxies. Plus, the Mormons don’t really believe much in the Bible. They claim that it has been altered and corrupted over the centuries. I don’t know what the JWs believe about the Bible, but it is probably similar if they felt they needed their own version that states their own theology.

The only difference between so-called Catholic and so-called Protestant Bibles, is that most Protestants agree with Luther on the removal of a set of books that he thought should not be part of the canon. Catholics have never altered anything from the original documents and canon. For that matter, neither have Protestants except for the wholesale removal of those books. Well, Luther did perform some creative translation in order to support his theology, so I guess you could say that he both added to and subtracted from. But that was the Protestants doing that. I agree that it wasn’t a smart thing to do.


#4

These lines from the Apocalypse of St. John were written before the compilation of the Bible as we know it (the official compilation of which was accomplished by the God-given authority of the Catholic Church). Not adding or taking away refers to the text of the book of Revelation itself and is not a reference to the Bible as a whole; it is only read as a warning vis-a-vis the entire bible by Protestant (Fundamentalist) controversialists - and, apparently, by non-Christians with another axe to grind. :slight_smile:


#5

Hi
Since JesusYeshuaIssa died a natural and respectful death in Sirinagar, Kashmir, India; he surely cannot come for a second time. I don’t visualize his return in literal and physical sense. yes, in symbolic sense he has in the form of the PromisedMessiahImamMahdi 1835-1908, he has already come.You may if you like access:alislam.org/ for more information.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics


#6

Why are you trying to fix problems between Catholics and JWs in the first place?

We (catholics) know why the JWs don’t approve of our Bible, and they know why we don’t approve of theirs.

As for your ridiculous belief that you keep popping up in every thread, that Jesus died a natural death in India, just shows that you don’t believe the Bible, either of the one that we or the JWs use.

So is “bridging the gaps” another term for “converting us all to Islam”?


#7

:banghead::banghead: AND :banghead:

paarsurrey,
There is a nice little thread on here i started called Muslim friends, we will NOT convert.
Since you have ignored that particular request, i will lay things straight out on the table for you.
We as Christians BELIEVE Jesus IS THE SON of God.
No matter how many times you claim Jesus as a prophet, we will simply not believe you, cause it is a lie and sinful to reduce the son of God to a mere prophet.
Dont you see, when Muhammed was making up this Islam religion, he couldnt possibly have anyone think there was a more important person than him in history, so he was the one that made up these lies and reduced Jesus to a mere prophet…
And he also made up the lies about him not dying on the cross…actually he wrote a LOT of lies about Jesus…
So paarsurrey, please stop trolling on these boards with trying to convert us… we will listen when you stop trying too…


#8

Hi
I don’t think you are so fragile to convert. There is no harm in having information, it does not harm anybody. If you get convinced with the rational arguments then of course you can get converted, otherwise no compulsion.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics


#9

But dont you see, this is a CATHOLIC forum, we are only really interested in CATHOLICISM, not converting to Islam.
This forum is for talking about other religions, NOT conversion.
It might not harm anybody, but it sure is annoying everyone reading the same thing over and over and over again when we simply are NOT interested… PERIOD!


#10

Hi
I don’t think that you mean that anybody can add or take away from the Bible, there is no binding except the Book of Revelation in which this warning is written.
If you mean that the Bible is protected and secured from corrpution under seperate verses, please quote those verses?
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics


#11

Hi
Urdu is a language spoken in India/Pakistan and the neighbouring courtries.
As Bible has been translated in English so it has been translated in Urdu for the benefit of Urdu speaking polulation.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics


#12

Hi
In my opinion JesusYeshuaIssa was a subordinate ProphetMessenger of Moses and of his Book called Torah. JesusYeshuIssa, therefore never added and was not authorised to add anything in Torah or take away anything from Torah. Except for the words Jesus himself spoke, which are in fact in support of Torah, almost all what has been collected and bound by the Church called NTBible, is in my opinion an addition to Torah or taking away something from Torah under one pretex or the other. Please stick to your own opinion, no compulsion.
I respect your faith.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics


#13

Thanks, paarsurrey. I take it, then, that you live in the India/Pakistan region?

You mentioned having JW visitors. Frankly I’m amazed that the JWs venture so far afield as Pakistan. You’ve probably got Mormons there, then, too. Well, when Americans invent a religion, they sure do go whole hog, don’t they?

Now, are JWs allowed to proseletyze in your country without being bothered by the authorities?


#14

Ah,. come on,… I think he’s cute…! :slight_smile:

He’s really helping me with my Urdu accented english…! Huge run-on sentences, where you can just forget the periods, yes it’s so much fun, yes it is, I am not ahmadi, but I do play one on Baliwood Channel 26, thank you so very very much and have a very nice day, full of very nice and wonderful greatness…!

Oh, my golly gosh…


#15

The Christian Bible was originally put together by the Catholic Church. As you know it contains the OT. It contains all of the books of the OT that Jesus and the early church fathers taught from. Figure if it was good enough for Jesus it is what we must use.

Protestants came along 1500 years later and removed the 14 books in the Apocrypha. However many Protestant Bible include these books as additional reading… They just do not believe that they are divine scripture. These 14 books are as follows: First Esdras (Greek for Ezra), Second Esdras, The Book of Tobit, The Book of Judith, The Additions to the Book of Esther, The Wisdom of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus, The Book or Baruch, The Story of Susanna, The Song of Three Children, The Story of Bel and the Dragon (a story of Daniel and false prophets), The Prayer of Manasses, 1st and 2nd Maccabees.

JW’s go futher in that in their ‘translation’ of the bible they have changed the bible to fit their beliefs. They are not main stream Christians. Many argue that JW’s are not Christians at all for many reasons.

Catholics are not ‘cut off from the tree of life in terms of Revelation 22:18-19.’ Remember that it is the Catholic Church that assembled the Bible from the OT and the writings of the early church fathers. It is the protestants who chose to change it by removing books.
There is another point that you miss about Revelation 22:18-19. Many people believe that when it mentions ‘book’ it is talking about the bible. When Revelation was writing it was a stand-alone writing, or book. The bible is a bibliotheca… A library or collection of books. So Revelations is cautioning people about changing anything in the Book of Revelations.

First lets look at the idea of mainstream Christian denominations…. There are two major Christian denominations…… Catholics and Orthodox. We make up about 75% of all Christians. That’s over 1.75 billion people. Catholics alone are about 1.3 of that number.
Protestants are a distant third in the ‘mainstream’. They are divided into about 3000 sects. There is no more union between the different sects of Protestantism then there is between the Protestants as a whole and Catholics. It seems that these folks have a very hard time getting along with others, even with other protestants. Since they agree on little as a whole, it would be a form of insanity to try to come to some agreement with this fractured group. Catholics and Orthodox are what we have. We have used the same bibles for almost 2000 years. We’re not about to change it now.
The remedy has existed for most of 2000 years… it’s called the Catholic Bible. But all Protestants need to do to return to the true bible is to add back the 14 books. All the rest of the bible is the same.
JW”s on the other hand will need to throw out their bible since is a translations and in some ways a reworking of the bible.


#16

Hi
I appreciate your informative post. I do have, however, some questions some of which I have meanwhile posted.
Thanks again.
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics


#17

The thing about Islam is that Muhammad did not write the Qur’an. He was illiterate. When he died there were apparently an odd assortment of notes left (written by scribes and others). They were on things like pieces of wood, leaves, leather, etc. His child bride even said that some of the notes were lost forever because while she was at his funeral, a goat entered the house and ate some of the ‘Qur’an’ in it’s note form.
The Qur’an itself was actually written a hundred years or so after the death of Muhammad. Muslims claim that there have only ever existed one version of the Qur’an and it still exists today. However this is imply not true. At the time of the 3rd Caliphate there were so many versions that it was causing trouble. So the Caliph a his people put together a version the Qur’an that support his views of things. Then he confiscated all of the diverse versions of the Qur’an on pain of death, and distributed his new version.
In 1972, during the restoration of the Great Mosque of Sana’a, in Yemen, laborers working in a loft between the structure’s inner and outer roofs stumbled across a remarkable gravesite, a paper grave… in this case the resting place for, among other things, tens of thousands of fragments from close to a thousand different parchment codices of the Koran. They date from the first two centuries of Islam.
These are the oldest known versions of the Qur’an and they show an *evolving *text rather than simply the Word of God as revealed in its entirety to the Prophet Muhammad in the seventh century A.D.
It is a fascinating find.
derafsh-kaviyani.com/english/quran1.html

No kidding!


#18

The Bible is protected from corruption by God. The Catholic Church as the authority here on earth to protect it. And this they have done as it has not changed since it was written.


#19

Hi
So you mean there are no specific verses of GodAllahYHWH in OT/NTBible protecting these books from additions or taking away something from them. So it was logical for the writer of Revelation to mention a warning in this regard, according to some only to cover his book, not the rest of books collected together and bound in to be called NTBible.
So the authority of Church unless it would have been mentioned clearly in so many words seems vulnerable, and in my opinion only a made up story by the church to establish its hegemony over the followers. I think it is not more than that, and that might be the reason of Luther protesting against it.
I respect you faith.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics


#20

The authority of the Church is not vulnerable as Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail against her.

Jesus founded His Church on Peter, who in turn passed down authority to others.

With the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the promise of Jesus that the gates of hell will not prevail, the books of the bible that we all know today were compiled.

Some didn’t agree, like Luther, so took out the books they didn’t agree with, and the rest is history.


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