Tridentine: dying, isolationist movement?

I am currently involved in a discussion with a priest who thinks:

  1. The Tridentine Mass is a museum piece.
  2. It does not foster enough “community”, that is,
    people are unfriendly and don’t stick around after mass to
    talk with their brothers and sisters.
  3. The Tridentine Mass goers live in a “bubble”, that is, they are
    isolationists and they do next to nothing to further
    evangelization, which is why the Tridentine will eventually
    die out.
  4. The Tridentine is unwelcoming which is another reason why
    it will not grow: Protestants and the younger generation
    find no interest in it.
  5. It is useful in one instance: when liberalism is rampant
    in a diocese, it is sort of the “antidote” that people can
    seek refuge in.
  6. The tridentine seminaries attract “wackos”.

I really tend to differ with these statements, I think the Tridentine is growing, people are attracted to the mysticism and reverence and it is attracting the younger generation which is tired of complaceny and irreverence. Also, I believe it is a growing movement rather than a dwindling one due to lack of interest.
My problem is how do I show evidence of this to this priest?

O boy.

Number one, there are many articles on the internet showing a surge of youth attending the Traditional Latin Mass.

Here is one of them:
greenvilleonline.com/news/2004/04/26/2004042629999.htm

How dare he calls the Tridentine Mass a musuem piece what an insult, when it has sanctified many souls. There are pre-vatican II saints just in case the priest does not know.

As for community, there is lots of it at my area, probally because the traditional movement down at my area is more organized.
We have dinners, conferences, picnics and pilgrimages. The indult Mass in my area always have people sticking around and talking to each other and inviting each other to breakfast.

They are doing everything they can to prevent a community to form, for example in LA the indult Traditional Latin Mass rotates around 4 churches, and they do this to prevent a formation of a community, I know l live near LA and talked to many people about it.

If he says that the FSSP, ICKSP, attract wakos, he is then insulting them.

[quote=Iohannes]O boy.

Number one, there are many articles on the internet showing a surge of youth attending the Traditional Latin Mass.

Here is one of them:
greenvilleonline.com/news/2004/04/26/2004042629999.htm

How dare he calls the Tridentine Mass a musuem piece what an insult, when it has sanctified many souls. There are pre-vatican II saints just in case the priest does not know.

As for community, there is lots of it at my area, probally because the traditional movement down at my area is more organized.
We have dinners, conferences, picnics and pilgrimages. The indult Mass in my area always have people sticking around and talking to each other and inviting each other to breakfast.

They are doing everything they can to prevent a community to form, for example in LA the indult Traditional Latin Mass rotates around 4 churches, and they do this to prevent a formation of a community, I know l live near LA and talked to many people about it.

If he says that the FSSP, ICKSP, attract wakos, he is then insulting them.
[/quote]

Would you be willing to give me reasons why the Tridentine is not a “fringe, isolationist movement”… so that I can dialogue with this priest? He actually is willing to get into a conversation about it to prove his point. And more stats on the Tridentine’s growth?

I know if I tell him of a person who knows of a great Tridentine community he will tell me: “That is an exception” but it is not a movement that attracts, it fosters no community. it is all about liturgy, liturgy, liturgy, no community…

I once heard that 25% of Catholics in America celebrate the Tridentine Rite from an e-mail list. I have no idea where they got this number, or if it includes the SSPX and the churches that believes that Peter’s chair is vacant. But if that number is the truth, then I would say that the Tridentine movement is far from dying. In fact, I think it is growing by force not only in America, but all over the world as a result of all the scandals assoiciated with parishes and some parishes really not following the new Mass as its supposed to be with the many liturgic abuses and such.

I grew up in the 50s and attended the traditional Latin Mass of Pope St. Pius V until it was supplanted by the ‘spirit’ of Vatican II. I believe the Mass was celebrated more reverently and I don’t remember parishioners being any less welcoming or more unfriendly. I believe that the liturgical modernists have made a determined effort to focus the Mass on the people of God, rather than on God, in a misguided attempt to water down the Mass in order to attract Protestants. This is all part and parcel of the general dumbing down of standards throughout our post-modern, post-Christian culture, especially in America and western Europe. Witness the prevalence of litugical abuses, bad music, wimpy sermons, and ugly church architecture. Today we have tables instead of altars, Chinese fire drill processions instead of communion rails, touchy-feely bromides instead of the unadulterated Truth of **all **Catholic teaching. If true, it is encouraging that interest among young people in maintaining the Tridentine rite seems to be on the increase.

This priest is unfortunately tearing down the old mass in an attempt to build up the new. I would suggest that those that take issue with that take the high road and build up the case for the Trid mass rather than tearing down the new. Lots of bad blood could be avoided on both sides this way.

Scott

[quote=Voice_Of_Reason]I once heard that 25% of Catholics in America celebrate the Tridentine Rite from an e-mail list. I have no idea where they got this number, or if it includes the SSPX and the churches that believes that Peter’s chair is vacant.
[/quote]

?
I find this highly improbable, but would be interested to know what the percentage really is. Not that it is determinant of the question at hand since quantity is not the whole story.

I think if you speak with priests ordained between 1957 - 1995 you will find that the majority of them hate the Tridentine Mass. Priests before and after that span appreciate the beauty and reverence offered in the Latin Mass. And the parishioners love it.

Our first TLM indult Mass will take place next Sunday, October 3. I know that I have a carful going with me. I’ll let you know how it went.

Lets take a good example in Campos, Brazil.
The only legit Traditional Diocese in full union with Pope John Paul II. Campos, Brazil happens to be a very poor area, where people make only $1 a day.

During a typical sunday, a typical parish in that diocese hears about 900 confessions and have to recruit nearby priest in order to keep up with the demands.

I believe in the Year 2000 or 2001, I forgot which, Bishop Rangel regularized with the Holy See.

This is from the Organization Catholic Reform, there website is down right now, but once it is back up, there are awesome pictures.

Here is a glimpse of the Tridentine Diocese of Campos, Brazil, taken from Catholic Reform.

Schools: Eleven of them, 3000 students being educated
Orphanages: Two of them
Homes for the Disabled: take anyone who is handicapped and care for them
Homes of the Aged: Three of them take in the indigent and abandoned
Food and clothing centers for the Homeless: Aiding the needy in thirteen different location in the campos territory
Extensive network of social services, aiding 2000 people annually.

I am not talking about some little parish I am talking about a poor little diocese who does not even have a enough money for a big enough seminary.

Talk about Campos Brazil to your priest, if you want information, contact Catholic Reform.

The Diocese of Campos:
seminario-campos.org.br/

Here is their website, but it is down:
catholicreform.org/

As for protestants not interested inthe Tridentine Mass:
Talk about the famous pre-vatican II English converts:

-Neuman
-G. K Chesterton
-Belloc?

For priestly formation:
The FSSP seminary in Nebraska is overcrowded, they are in the process of expanding their seminary.

Other orders like the jesuits who adopted modernism is fading away and falling apart.

Belloc wasn’t a convert. But, his mother was received into the Church by Manning

I sat in on a group not long ago and I heard something that really caught my attention.

The Tridentine Mass was being discussed and the fact that younger folks seem to be attracted to it.

The Priest said, since the reasons most Masses are now in the vernacular is so that the Catholic Community could understand and more easily participate in the Mass. He then said he thought that most younger folks went to Tridentine Masses in order to be entertained.

Being a Charismatic, I nearly choked! This is what we have been accused of by more traditional Catholics, for so long. I never could understand that I was being entertained but that I was deepening my worship.

Definately food for thought.

[quote=Voice_Of_Reason]the SSPX and the churches that believes that Peter’s chair is vacant. QUOTE]

No they don’t. There are several threads on this subject throuoghout the forum so I won’t go into it all - but the SSPX are not sedevacants, the SSVX are.
[/quote]

I doubt the 25% figure because

  1. Not all Catholics attend any Mass at all.

  2. There would not including all the Indult, other licit special orders; SSPX, SSVX and other ilicit Masses together be enough Tridentine Masses available for 25% of the Catholics to attend them.

If they were readily available everywhere, it might be a legitimate statistic … I don’t believe there are even valid statistics on how many Baptized Catholics actually attend any mass.

He then said he thought that most younger folks went to Tridentine Masses in order to be entertained.

I wonder on what basis he makes that judgement? The young people I see at our monthly indult TLM are extremely reverent and appear to be paying attention and following along in their missals. I myself attend as you say, to deepen my worship.

I often wonder whether those who unleash verbal attacks against the Tridentine Mass and its devotees do so in order to discourage a widespread rediscovery of its sturdiness and beauty which would result in a lesser attendance at their parish (and less money in their collection baskets in return).

[quote=deogratias]I often wonder whether those who unleash verbal attacks against the Tridentine Mass and its devotees do so in order to discourage a widespread rediscovery of its sturdiness and beauty which would result in a lesser attendance at their parish (and less money in their collection baskets in return).
[/quote]

At least, it is only verbal, down here in socal it real and physical.
In LA the Tridentine Rotates around 4 Churches so that a community is prevent to form, it is not really hard to figure out.

in ORange County, the Bishop just took it away despite the fact that there were many priest who knew how to celebrate and that the parish and including 1600+ signatures wanted the Tridentine Mass. After he yanked the Tridentine Mass, about half went over to a schismatic parish.

He then said he thought that most younger folks went to Tridentine Masses in order to be entertained.

What an insult. I thought we had lifeteen for that? :confused:

I agree 100%!

I’ve always felt completely insulted when that was said about us Charismatics.

Does anyone have any stats? Number of Tridentine parishes since 1990 as compared to now? how many registered Tridentines there are in this country? etc?

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